Should have never been in that position against bottom-dwelling Minnesota to begin with. Yeah it sucks the call was missed at the biggest moment of the game, but being in a spot like that when you’re favored to win by 15 isn’t good. Hopefully the team bounces back and runs off some wins, but I could also see them going the other way and losing a bunch of games in a row just as easily. Time for Holtmann to earn his check.
You are correct, we should have never been in that position, HOWEVER, that should not excuse the refs from the fact that the call was horrendous. They need to be held accountable. If refs are allowed to make bad calls and it be let go because "the team shouldn't have been in that position" then refs will never get better.
I agree. I don't mind the idea of a coaches challenge under a certain time frame on any call that results in a dead ball anyway. Could be implemented in an efficient manner.
Agreed 100%- There is no way the Bucks should be in a potential losing situation against a terrible team like the Gophers. Foul or not, this team collapses like a house of cards at the end of the game
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I do not get the purpose of doing these reviews for the last, what, 2 or 5 minutes. Do not the other 35 or 38 minutes matter? Do not bad calls made then have the same effect on the game? This idea that the last couple of minutes are more important just because they are closest to the ending is just bizarre.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
I think it's a compromise of sorts, you can't review every play, all game long and the review is meant to prevent an especially bad call from causing a team to win/lose in the last minutes of a game. I suppose you could give each coach a challenge or two during the game and then have official reviews only during the last two minutes.
In basketball there is even more "doubt" in foul/no foul type calls, it's rare that you can look at that type of call and be 100% sure that the block was 100% clean. It's bad enough in football, at pro and college levels, when every fan watching TV CLEARLY sees that a call should be overturned and it doesn't happen, BB would be even worse.
There's missing calls that happened, and then calling stuff that NEVER happened. The second can't happen because you are looking for contact to blow the whistle and there was NONE. We cant have referees out here GUESSING with the game on the line. That being said Holtmann is a terrible in game coach and this should never have been the deciding play.
I think the most disappointing thing about the call was the lack of conversation between the officials on the court. The ref under the basket made the call, there was an official on the wing ( on the tv shot) that had a very clean look at the play and did not call a foul. Those two should have take a few seconds to consult before going to the scorers table and report the foul. Weak teamwork within the crew. All the guy under the basket did was pump his arm up and down trying to sell the call to the crowd ( and most likely to himself).
Let me add to my comment, with 1:55 left in the game, Thornton pulls up for a shot near the foul line, the ref under the basket believes Thornton's shot goes out of bounds untouched and the ball belongs to MInny. The outside official steps in and speaks with the official who made the call, what he saw was a partially blocked shot, meaning the ball belonged to OSU. Now he is where the rules are different, they went to video review, within the last 2 minutes, and determined that indeed the ball was blocked by Cooper and OSU maintained possession. A foul or non foul is not subject to video review, This is a perfect example of two officials communicating on the court.
I watched the Minnesota game again on DVD. We played well until the last 10 minutes. Forced shots and no movement. Holtmann's mike hookup showed all he said was "let's go". Minn. missed several free throws to help us out. The OSU -end-of-game management is terrible.
Guessing has always been my point. I can see missing calls but how can one see a foul or contact that wasn't there unless you are guessing. That said it's an amateur sport.
One thing that was also overlooked, the guy under the basket does not always have the best look, if you go back and look at the replay the official is along the baseline positioned on the side of the court closest to the team benches ( he is in the correct position ) and has a good view of any player driving to the basket from the opposite wing. The problem becomes once a player becomes elevated you run into some possible obstructions of your sight lines, you have the rim, and net, you also have the backboard and its frame with can also obstruct a good view.
We'll never know exactly what view the official under the basket had but the potential for an obstructed view does exist while the official on the wing who did not call a foul had no obstruction of sight lines. This draws back to my comment about the crew not communicating before reporting the foul to the table.
All of us have consequences when we make a mistake. It's part of life. The officials made a mistake. What's the consequence? They don't get to officiate a tournament game? Hold people accountable
True, but that performance includes more than 1 call. So, in totality how was their performance? I ask because I didn't see game but I did see the clean block highlight. Really bad call no doubt. But I'm sure some other calls were in favor of the Buckeyes, yes? I'll tell you that ref knows he kicked that call (probably as soon as he blew the whistle) and feels terrible about it, doesn't change anything but he'll learn and hopefully not make the same mistake. Been there, not at that level but been there. You make 999 good calls and the 1 that you miss gets blown up. Sucks all the way around. All I can say is, don't put yourself in the hands of an official making or not making a call.
True and I would bet that ten times the number of fouls on blocked shots are missed rather than called, though at that point in the game it should be a VERY obvious foul for the official to make that call. You don't fine/punish an official for a single blown call but you should track their accuracy over a game/season and help them improve their calls if needed and fire them if it's warranted.
If the official is worth his salt he's mad at himself for blowing the call.
It shouldn't have come down to that play. This should've been a blowout against one of the bottom dwellers of the B1G. Things aren't looking any better either. 4 of the next 5 on the road. Could get really ugly, really fast
lol--not sure if this makes me feel better or worse...anticipating a foul is the number one cardinal sin in Officiating 101, but happens more often than not
that being said, we sucked the entire game, so we got what we deserved...the loss
And the fact is the Minn player got the rebound off of his own blocked shot and was likely going to go right back up to score or get fouled. So basically... Same outcome. Didn't watch the game. But while Zed is out we have to look at playin the forwards for more mins. Because I'd bet we've lost a lot in rebounding.
You repeated what I said. I didn't watch the game. I assumed he wouldn't run this soon with that shoulder injury. He ran 10 mins... And wasn't the same Zed. I'd say he didn't run. I stand by we need to play more length. Additionally... Holden is playing waaaay too little mins. Shooting 51% from the field and t0% from three. Hasn't had a game over 6 shots. Averaged about 12 then 16 and then 20 in his previous years. Plays good D and can be dependable shooting. This is the best time to boost his mins and be sure Zed recovers. We can double and recover with the likes of our 6'6" and above players.
I hadn't noticed that before, but you right...if the officials correctly make no-call on that shot, the ball is likely put right back up to score or be fouled. Zed Key is there to contest a put-back but there are also 3 gophers right there. So the call likely didn't really hurt. Of course I'd still want the chance to play it out, but it probably didn't matter.
Don't get me wrong they miss calls all the time but to have called a foul on a game winning shot (rarely ever called unless extreme contact) let alone to call a foul on a very clean block with no body contact at all. I'm sorry but this was disgusting.
I think it’s disingenuous to ardently defend a coach(with zero accolades to his resume) that doesn’t care or put for effort to win games for a university who pays him 4 million dollars a year.
Any Buckeye fan ( not the same as a Holtmann fan) who saw those in huddle convos would be disgusted at the lack of leadership and the body language of those players.
I completely agree with you about Holtmann and I gave him a longer leash than most did, but I will never blame lack of leadership on a coach. Leadership comes from the players and there are plenty of veterans on this team that need to step up.
I remember the old days when refs would swallow their whistle inside of a minute because nobody wanted the game decided by a foul call. If time was running out you needed to make a jumper because if you took the ball to the lane, you were going to be fouled and a ref wasn’t going to bail you out. Now it’s the complete opposite. Officials are looking to make a call. I preferred a no call to call everything. In a perfect world, we would have some sort of device that would allow an official to go back and look at the play and make the correct call.
Can’t review a foul. WTF That is the very definition of giving total control to the refs.
Yes. They, as they should, have total control. You want basketball to become football where every call is reviewed and have a 4 hour game? No thank you
The Big10 refs specifically in men's basketball have been BAD for the better part of 30+ year's. Big10 refs are a major reason why the conference despite having elite talent have exactly one NC in those 30 year's. With all that being said I still believe Holtman should've never been in that position last night to leave up to the morons in stripes.
There have been so many bad B10 officials over the last 30years. Ed Hightower, TV Teddy Valentine, Bo Boroski, Jim Burr, John and Tim Higgins, Carstensen (Mr. Wisconsin), Sciorotto is an up and comer being a crappy ref and the list goes on an on for crappy refs in this conference.
Bad call but ultimately this accomplishes nothing. I know league's do this but I would rather they didn't release the info as it just kinda twists the knife of disappointment deeper,
They never should have been in that position vs Minny.
This has nothing to do with Buckeyes, but this was a pretty amazing shot from Wed night.
My aim, then, is to whip the Weasels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. - William Tecumseh Sherman (with apologies)
6th year guy Sueing had his ankles broke with a crossover dribble. I like Justice and the players on the team but they are passive. We need some players that have a lil dawg in them.
Would have rather read an article from a certain replay official explaining why he redefined the targeting rule on the fly and why his supervisor is okay with that.
Are we still waiting on the apology letter from the Peach Bowl for the horrid officiating in that game -- you know, at least two horrible calls, either one of which probably results in Ohio State winning the game because they maintain possession and end up scoring more points?
I didn't think so.
As bad as this is, what happened in that playoff game was 1,000 times worse because the officials on the field got it right, and the review booth overturned the calls.
It was a BAD call. However, the Gopher player still comes down with the ball on the other side of the basket with 1.7 seconds left. Maybe the players stopped playing because of the whistle, but it looked like he had a clean put back from the other side if he wanted it. TERRIBLE defense all around for the bucks.
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Should have never been in that position against bottom-dwelling Minnesota to begin with. Yeah it sucks the call was missed at the biggest moment of the game, but being in a spot like that when you’re favored to win by 15 isn’t good. Hopefully the team bounces back and runs off some wins, but I could also see them going the other way and losing a bunch of games in a row just as easily. Time for Holtmann to earn his check.
OSUCOM 2008 Graduate. Go Bucks!
Please tell me how one EARNS $80,000.00 per week.
Lol a state employee too, at that
I'm sure Felix Gallardo or El Chapo could tell you
Easy. Lead the second biggest sport revenue generator into the Dance. WELL worth it.
You are correct, we should have never been in that position, HOWEVER, that should not excuse the refs from the fact that the call was horrendous. They need to be held accountable. If refs are allowed to make bad calls and it be let go because "the team shouldn't have been in that position" then refs will never get better.
That's a Buckeye touchdown!
I agree. I don't mind the idea of a coaches challenge under a certain time frame on any call that results in a dead ball anyway. Could be implemented in an efficient manner.
If Sueing doesn't fall down the MN player most likely doesn't get to the hoop and Thornton doesn't commit a "ghost" foul.
"We're going to give the ball to dumb-ass and grind meat"--Woody Hayes
Agreed 100%- There is no way the Bucks should be in a potential losing situation against a terrible team like the Gophers. Foul or not, this team collapses like a house of cards at the end of the game
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Just like our shot against Rutgers shouldn't have counted. It all evens out.
After last night's loss, Holtmann is 45-40 in conference play ever since KBD and Tate left. Inspiring stuff.
"We didn't play with enough force tonight"
I do not get the purpose of doing these reviews for the last, what, 2 or 5 minutes. Do not the other 35 or 38 minutes matter? Do not bad calls made then have the same effect on the game? This idea that the last couple of minutes are more important just because they are closest to the ending is just bizarre.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
I think it's a compromise of sorts, you can't review every play, all game long and the review is meant to prevent an especially bad call from causing a team to win/lose in the last minutes of a game. I suppose you could give each coach a challenge or two during the game and then have official reviews only during the last two minutes.
In basketball there is even more "doubt" in foul/no foul type calls, it's rare that you can look at that type of call and be 100% sure that the block was 100% clean. It's bad enough in football, at pro and college levels, when every fan watching TV CLEARLY sees that a call should be overturned and it doesn't happen, BB would be even worse.
Sani
This means nothing. Fine/suspend the officials that made the call.
That is stupid. It was a split second decision a person has to make. He got it wrong. No ref gets 100% calls right.
The refs last nite did a 10 times better job than Holtmann did coaching.
I would rather see Holtmann suspended than any ref.
Benchwarmer
There's missing calls that happened, and then calling stuff that NEVER happened. The second can't happen because you are looking for contact to blow the whistle and there was NONE. We cant have referees out here GUESSING with the game on the line. That being said Holtmann is a terrible in game coach and this should never have been the deciding play.
I think the most disappointing thing about the call was the lack of conversation between the officials on the court. The ref under the basket made the call, there was an official on the wing ( on the tv shot) that had a very clean look at the play and did not call a foul. Those two should have take a few seconds to consult before going to the scorers table and report the foul. Weak teamwork within the crew. All the guy under the basket did was pump his arm up and down trying to sell the call to the crowd ( and most likely to himself).
Let me add to my comment, with 1:55 left in the game, Thornton pulls up for a shot near the foul line, the ref under the basket believes Thornton's shot goes out of bounds untouched and the ball belongs to MInny. The outside official steps in and speaks with the official who made the call, what he saw was a partially blocked shot, meaning the ball belonged to OSU. Now he is where the rules are different, they went to video review, within the last 2 minutes, and determined that indeed the ball was blocked by Cooper and OSU maintained possession. A foul or non foul is not subject to video review, This is a perfect example of two officials communicating on the court.
I watched the Minnesota game again on DVD. We played well until the last 10 minutes. Forced shots and no movement. Holtmann's mike hookup showed all he said was "let's go". Minn. missed several free throws to help us out. The OSU -end-of-game management is terrible.
Guessing has always been my point. I can see missing calls but how can one see a foul or contact that wasn't there unless you are guessing. That said it's an amateur sport.
One thing that was also overlooked, the guy under the basket does not always have the best look, if you go back and look at the replay the official is along the baseline positioned on the side of the court closest to the team benches ( he is in the correct position ) and has a good view of any player driving to the basket from the opposite wing. The problem becomes once a player becomes elevated you run into some possible obstructions of your sight lines, you have the rim, and net, you also have the backboard and its frame with can also obstruct a good view.
We'll never know exactly what view the official under the basket had but the potential for an obstructed view does exist while the official on the wing who did not call a foul had no obstruction of sight lines. This draws back to my comment about the crew not communicating before reporting the foul to the table.
All of us have consequences when we make a mistake. It's part of life. The officials made a mistake. What's the consequence? They don't get to officiate a tournament game? Hold people accountable
I’m sure that’s what you said after Clemson 2019 or Georgia, this year. For Dgeneral
While I agree with the sentiment that they can't be perfect, they still need to be held accountable for their performance.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Tailgate Fare Historical Archive
True, but that performance includes more than 1 call. So, in totality how was their performance? I ask because I didn't see game but I did see the clean block highlight. Really bad call no doubt. But I'm sure some other calls were in favor of the Buckeyes, yes? I'll tell you that ref knows he kicked that call (probably as soon as he blew the whistle) and feels terrible about it, doesn't change anything but he'll learn and hopefully not make the same mistake. Been there, not at that level but been there. You make 999 good calls and the 1 that you miss gets blown up. Sucks all the way around. All I can say is, don't put yourself in the hands of an official making or not making a call.
Muck Fichigan
True and I would bet that ten times the number of fouls on blocked shots are missed rather than called, though at that point in the game it should be a VERY obvious foul for the official to make that call. You don't fine/punish an official for a single blown call but you should track their accuracy over a game/season and help them improve their calls if needed and fire them if it's warranted.
If the official is worth his salt he's mad at himself for blowing the call.
Sani
you know, in some strange way it would make me feel better to hear him admit that...I don't know why, it just would
Faster, tougher, and more violent...
https://www.ohsaa.org/Officiating/permits
Muck Fichigan
It shouldn't have come down to that play. This should've been a blowout against one of the bottom dwellers of the B1G. Things aren't looking any better either. 4 of the next 5 on the road. Could get really ugly, really fast
lol--not sure if this makes me feel better or worse...anticipating a foul is the number one cardinal sin in Officiating 101, but happens more often than not
that being said, we sucked the entire game, so we got what we deserved...the loss
Faster, tougher, and more violent...
And the fact is the Minn player got the rebound off of his own blocked shot and was likely going to go right back up to score or get fouled. So basically... Same outcome. Didn't watch the game. But while Zed is out we have to look at playin the forwards for more mins. Because I'd bet we've lost a lot in rebounding.
Obvious you didn’t watch the game if you think Zed is out.
You repeated what I said. I didn't watch the game. I assumed he wouldn't run this soon with that shoulder injury. He ran 10 mins... And wasn't the same Zed. I'd say he didn't run. I stand by we need to play more length. Additionally... Holden is playing waaaay too little mins. Shooting 51% from the field and t0% from three. Hasn't had a game over 6 shots. Averaged about 12 then 16 and then 20 in his previous years. Plays good D and can be dependable shooting. This is the best time to boost his mins and be sure Zed recovers. We can double and recover with the likes of our 6'6" and above players.
I hadn't noticed that before, but you right...if the officials correctly make no-call on that shot, the ball is likely put right back up to score or be fouled. Zed Key is there to contest a put-back but there are also 3 gophers right there. So the call likely didn't really hurt. Of course I'd still want the chance to play it out, but it probably didn't matter.
In this scenario, the official blew the whistle, play becomes dead at that point so they would not have been able to score off the blocked shot.
in his scenario, there was no foul, thus no whistle
Faster, tougher, and more violent...
But they would've been given the possession after any review seeing how he (the Minn player) clearly possessed the ball after the block
Anticipation fouls are FAR too common in basketball. It’s gross and obnoxious.
Yep
Makes Sense to me...
Might have been the worst call I have seen in recent years of college basketball absolutely disgusting it got called.
You must not watch much basketball or referee basketball at all.
Benchwarmer
Don't get me wrong they miss calls all the time but to have called a foul on a game winning shot (rarely ever called unless extreme contact) let alone to call a foul on a very clean block with no body contact at all. I'm sorry but this was disgusting.
According to our game day threads, every call against us is one of the worst ever. It’s comedy gold
"
"Character, like a photograph, develops in darkness." - Yousuf Karsh
Enough talk.
Nobody cares . That’s the worst team in the big 10 and we struggled
where is Bsk33 or Blackcoffee to defend Holtmann now
Started a whole thread on the college basketball forum, my man. But thanks for keeping me in your thoughts.
I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.
Hope you’re doing well
I don’t post in the forums.
Happy New Year
I think it is a little weird calling out fans, but you do you.
I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.
I think it’s disingenuous to ardently defend a coach(with zero accolades to his resume) that doesn’t care or put for effort to win games for a university who pays him 4 million dollars a year.
Any Buckeye fan ( not the same as a Holtmann fan) who saw those in huddle convos would be disgusted at the lack of leadership and the body language of those players.
I completely agree with you about Holtmann and I gave him a longer leash than most did, but I will never blame lack of leadership on a coach. Leadership comes from the players and there are plenty of veterans on this team that need to step up.
How are they supposed to learn leadership from a coach who doesn’t lead them ?
they have no idea how to break a press or execute a final play or inbounds play
just clueless
Correction. WAS the worst team in the Big10. Unfortunately the team they beat at their house may be the new “leader” here.
Which is disgraceful, because the talent is there!!
And thankyou for keeping me in your thoughts
I agree with playing the forwards (or Okpara) more, but fwiw, Key's not out
Faster, tougher, and more violent...
Did the Big Ten address why Holtmann’s team was uninspired and lost against the worst team in the conference?
I’m more concerned about that aspect of the loss.
No Shit Sherlock! Thanks B1G, I feel better.
Muck Fichigan
now you know how Rutgers fans feel
I remember the old days when refs would swallow their whistle inside of a minute because nobody wanted the game decided by a foul call. If time was running out you needed to make a jumper because if you took the ball to the lane, you were going to be fouled and a ref wasn’t going to bail you out. Now it’s the complete opposite. Officials are looking to make a call. I preferred a no call to call everything. In a perfect world, we would have some sort of device that would allow an official to go back and look at the play and make the correct call.
Can’t review a foul. WTF That is the very definition of giving total control to the refs.
Yes. They, as they should, have total control. You want basketball to become football where every call is reviewed and have a 4 hour game? No thank you
With great power comes great responsibility and perhaps accountability but I agree, can't review every call.
Sani
We won one on a missed call against Rutgers. Like many have said, we shouldn't have been in that position.
Now we have to go to Rutgers and play. They will be amped up after losing to us on a missed call.
Time to see if this team can step up! Go Bucks!
You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!
With all the bad calls we’ve seen and the Big 10 has admitted to, what is the corrective action?
The Big10 refs specifically in men's basketball have been BAD for the better part of 30+ year's. Big10 refs are a major reason why the conference despite having elite talent have exactly one NC in those 30 year's. With all that being said I still believe Holtman should've never been in that position last night to leave up to the morons in stripes.
GO BUCKS
There have been so many bad B10 officials over the last 30years. Ed Hightower, TV Teddy Valentine, Bo Boroski, Jim Burr, John and Tim Higgins, Carstensen (Mr. Wisconsin), Sciorotto is an up and comer being a crappy ref and the list goes on an on for crappy refs in this conference.
BuckeyeYankee
Larry Scirotto is so bad.
I play, coach stays. He goes, I go.
Bad call but ultimately this accomplishes nothing. I know league's do this but I would rather they didn't release the info as it just kinda twists the knife of disappointment deeper,
They never should have been in that position vs Minny.
JWilly3
This has nothing to do with Buckeyes, but this was a pretty amazing shot from Wed night.
My aim, then, is to whip the Weasels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. - William Tecumseh Sherman (with apologies)
That is an insane, once in a lifetime shot.
Buckeye_SC
Sure it was a bad call, however how did the Minnesota have a wide open lane directly to the basket?
TC
6th year guy Sueing had his ankles broke with a crossover dribble. I like Justice and the players on the team but they are passive. We need some players that have a lil dawg in them.
Justice Sueing: new hairstyle, same old mediocre.
Makes Sense to me...
This team is hard to root for. Another middle of the road BIG team. Meh
That's right, that's right, we bad
KARMA!
Would have rather read an article from a certain replay official explaining why he redefined the targeting rule on the fly and why his supervisor is okay with that.
VA_Buck
Definitely a clean block. I guess is was a make up call for the non out of bounds call that gave OSU the Rutgers game.
buckjunky
That's nice.
Are we still waiting on the apology letter from the Peach Bowl for the horrid officiating in that game -- you know, at least two horrible calls, either one of which probably results in Ohio State winning the game because they maintain possession and end up scoring more points?
I didn't think so.
As bad as this is, what happened in that playoff game was 1,000 times worse because the officials on the field got it right, and the review booth overturned the calls.
This makes me feel better.
It was a BAD call. However, the Gopher player still comes down with the ball on the other side of the basket with 1.7 seconds left. Maybe the players stopped playing because of the whistle, but it looked like he had a clean put back from the other side if he wanted it. TERRIBLE defense all around for the bucks.