He has rapidly gained confidence and vision since the start of the season. Thornton is one of those players that thrives being thrown into a fast game and playing big minutes. This is a coaches dream freshman point guard. He’s just going to get even better
It’s shooting percentage splits. 50% overall, 40% on 3’s, and 90% from the free throw line. Very very hard to attain; it’s the mark of an excellent shooter.
The first point guard to pull it off for a season in the nba was mark price. Steve nash then pulled it off twice followed by curry and Irving. It’s a gift from the basketball gods if your pg is that type of player.
Maybe now, after only a few games some of the detractors of the freshmen being able to make this team better than last years team may finally agree with my comments b4 the season started that they were going to make this years team better than last years. They will only get better the more they play together. Side note: If you doubled the minutes played for Brice he would be averaging 28 Points per game.
Making an impact as a true freshman is difficult, but even more difficult at point guard, where he has to direct the offense. I think he is the real deal! Go Bucks!
Maybe not, you may get more and more comfortable with the ball in your hands on every possession. He’s growing up every game. Coach Holtman just has to figure out how to keep them loose in big games to make a tourney run.
Bruce has liked good right from the start. It would be hard to ask for better from a freshman right out of the gate. He certainly plays well above freshman expectations and having a linebacker build gives him an edge not normally enjoyed by guards until their junior year.
9.9 PPG being fifth on the team is so great to see, there's real scoring balance on this squad and it doesn't feel like we're super dependent on any one or two guys even to go off in order to win. Tomorrow should be a fun one, UNC hasn't played great but they have also played a pretty damn tough schedule thus far and I think people swung so far over into them being overrated that they might actually be underrated now.
He'll only get better once Holtman decides to keep four capable scorers on the floor with him so that he can more naturally orchestrate an offense that functions without clunkiness because there's no one on the floor passing up obvious shots due to his lack of shooting skill. There's no justifiable reason to keep a player on the floor for the third most minutes when he's effectively last on the team in points per minute, with only deep bench players Colby Bauman and Bowen Harden - both scoring 0.0 ppg - behind him.
And somewhere CHB smiles, knowingly...while echoes of "we got him now' ring in their ears... It was always about PoR. Those poor useful idiots...
Fair point. What if someone on the bench that isn't playing as much could fill those stats while shooting at a much better clip? His per 40 minute numbers aren't far ahead of others.
That being said, I think that player is an important piece of this team. He's got a lot of experience. He's a stabilizing presence. He can handle PG duties on a team that only has 1 PG. He can guard multiple positions and defends better than most others on the team.
[Correction to my earlier post: "per minute" should read as "per 40 minutes". The correction is only for clarity, as the statistical relevance and conclusion remains the same.]
What if the player is second on the team in rebounds and leading the team in assists per game?
1) Those assist numbers are deceptive because the guy ALWAYS PASSES THE BALL because HE CAN'T SHOOT. The guy is 0-5 on 3-pointers, and I counted at least TWO airballs among them. (Said another way, 40 percent of his 3-pointers have been airballs!) Assists are all you can get if you don't shoot the ball and you're on the floor for 27 minutes.
2) Ranking 1st in assists is also deceptive in that Thornton CAN'T get assists by passing to that player - because he CAN'T SHOOT - yet that player can get assists by passing to Thornton, who can shoot. Unfortunately for Thornton, that player is there on the floor for roughly the same number of minutes. There's a reason I made the point the offense can't avoid clunkiness when effective ball movement isn't rewarded with a made shot that is the logical one to take as a result of that ball movement.
3) That 1st in assist ranking is also deceptive because it's a function of duration on the court, not efficiency of overall play. Just imagine if Thornton DIDN'T shoot in the same way that player doesn't - but only passed the ball. I posit not only would he lead in assists, but by a lot. Instead, Thornton plays efficiently in his minutes, scoring, defending and assisting.
4) The opportunity cost is too great in exchange for those numbers. This team will need more scoring against elite competition, and it will never come from the spot he plays with him on the floor. Better to use more of those minutes to develop and integrate the players who can provide it.
This is a woefully undersized team along the front line, and so I get that Holtman thinks he's addressing PF rebounding production, and helping with ball distribution. But he's not going to win that way with such a glaring weakness at the offensive end. It's unavoidable that he'll be exposed by the scoring pressure the elite teams will bring. Better to put his strongest, most efficient offensive groups out there who can match scoring pressure - much like an OL coach will opt to put his best five OL as the starters. It's not ideal, but it produces the best results with what he has on the roster.
And somewhere CHB smiles, knowingly...while echoes of "we got him now' ring in their ears... It was always about PoR. Those poor useful idiots...
I think Holtmann wants the defensive upside brings compared to the younger guys who need to improve. I think Holtmann is pleased with Roddy Gayles defensive awareness him being such a young cat, but where Roddy needs to be more comfortable is on the offensive end and Holtmann has said hes not quite there yet, but certainly has a high ceiling. Sensabugh we all know is a work in progress on the d side. Holden aside from his 3 heave is still struggling to getting used to B1G ball. Its not all so clear cut as you are stating it, all not so cut and dry, and as much as I am not in all stats, algorhythms, analytics, I do know its the immeasurables that often determine your wins or losses.
I do know its the immeasurables that often determine your wins or losses.
The fallacy there is that the so-called "immeasurables" are measurable, and as regards the player we're discussing, the net is a negative. Because winning games at the elite level in college basketball is first and foremost about unrelenting scoring pressure. No one has challenged this assertion, and the facts simply won't allow you to do that. You can talk all the "immeasurables" you want regarding a certain player, but they're meaningless if the net is that it prevents your offense from being at the requisite peak efficiency that produces unrelenting scoring pressure. We're not talking about a solid offensive player with "immeasurables" that elevate him above another solid or better player, but about one who is effectively dead last in scoring per 40 minutes. I really am taken aback by how some seem to believe you can hide that in your lineup for 27 minutes against elite teams. You can't do it, and I challenge you and others to show how that would work from the Elite Eight round and beyond. You guys are arguing for this guy and his 27 minutes as if Ohio State is some MAC team with no designs on getting to the Final Four.
I think Holtmann wants the defensive upside brings compared to the younger guys who need to improve.
Considering how elite level play works in college basketball that's a serious miscalculation on Holtman's part. Besides, I've watched the guy play at both ends of the court and I'm just not seeing the immeasurables you've all bought into, not even defensively. And certainly not at the level that I'd allow him to jam a wrench into the offensive works for 27 minutes.
I think it's foolhardy to believe the guy is going to rebound, assist and defend his way to a net positive - while scoring just over 4 PPG, as if the guys he's playing against aren't putting up numbers in rebounds and assists, and defending too, to counter what he does - but easily outscoring him. The premise becomes more absurd as the competition becomes elite - then more elite.
Last, when you say the younger guys "need to improve", that's not going to happen with them sitting on the bench. They need minutes, and they're available, if only Holtman will make the call, as he did today against UNC. I've never seen the offense look as seamless this season as it did today. Holtman needs to allow the guys with the offensive upside to integrate and develop to be ready to match the scoring pressure of the more elite teams he will face in the regular season, and potentially beyond. And holding them back because they need to improve is inconsistent with the decision he's making regarding this other player who he's not requiring to improve at the offensive end.
BTW, are you really going to take Sensabaugh out of the starting lineup after that showing against UNC?
And somewhere CHB smiles, knowingly...while echoes of "we got him now' ring in their ears... It was always about PoR. Those poor useful idiots...
Zed, Brice, Bruce, Tanner are all over 48% shooting, they need to shoot more. Bruce and Brice need to continue hitting three's they are both near 50%. Other guys with the lower percentages shooting (not naming names), need to quit shooting contested jump shots so much and find the guys above.
Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect - Woody Hayes
The refs blew the calls those last 5 seconds. Why were we tight with Rutgers? And what the heck does this mean: "He's used to winning and as much as anybody I've ever coached at a young age, he plays to win and never every kid plays to win or understands what playing to win looks like,“ Holtmann said." Holtmann really can't put sentences together or someone can't type?
A very nice surprise! Sometimes the guys who get overlooked are the guys who emerge first. I think they everyone thought Brice was going to be the dominant freshman, including me. Bruce has really produced offensively and I was not expecting that. Of course Brice is scoring at a higher clip but Bruce is the more rounded player. Bruce is the floor general, a good defensive player and a strong points contributor. It’s been really fun watching him control the team so far. Go Buckeyes!!
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Kid is a stud! Best point guard here since Craft and he is a way better shooter.....
Artthedart
he was fouled twice bringing it up the court. He probably looked like grown man in the 9th grade.
MICHIGAN STILL SUCKS
Great point guards are generals and I get that vibe from this kid.
future captain for sure - maybe as early as next season!
He has rapidly gained confidence and vision since the start of the season. Thornton is one of those players that thrives being thrown into a fast game and playing big minutes. This is a coaches dream freshman point guard. He’s just going to get even better
Tom
A potential 50-40-90 guy at point guard?
I enjoy basketball, but have no idea what a 50-40-90 guy is! Educate me please!
B Buehler
It’s shooting percentage splits. 50% overall, 40% on 3’s, and 90% from the free throw line. Very very hard to attain; it’s the mark of an excellent shooter.
Thank you! Since he is a point guard, I was trying to work out some stat that had assists in it. Much appreciated!
B Buehler
The first point guard to pull it off for a season in the nba was mark price. Steve nash then pulled it off twice followed by curry and Irving. It’s a gift from the basketball gods if your pg is that type of player.
mark price should be in the hof of course.
Maybe now, after only a few games some of the detractors of the freshmen being able to make this team better than last years team may finally agree with my comments b4 the season started that they were going to make this years team better than last years. They will only get better the more they play together. Side note: If you doubled the minutes played for Brice he would be averaging 28 Points per game.
Making an impact as a true freshman is difficult, but even more difficult at point guard, where he has to direct the offense. I think he is the real deal! Go Bucks!
You Got Barbecue Back There!?!?!?!
Maybe not, you may get more and more comfortable with the ball in your hands on every possession. He’s growing up every game. Coach Holtman just has to figure out how to keep them loose in big games to make a tourney run.
MICHIGAN STILL SUCKS
Bruce has liked good right from the start. It would be hard to ask for better from a freshman right out of the gate. He certainly plays well above freshman expectations and having a linebacker build gives him an edge not normally enjoyed by guards until their junior year.
9.9 PPG being fifth on the team is so great to see, there's real scoring balance on this squad and it doesn't feel like we're super dependent on any one or two guys even to go off in order to win. Tomorrow should be a fun one, UNC hasn't played great but they have also played a pretty damn tough schedule thus far and I think people swung so far over into them being overrated that they might actually be underrated now.
He'll only get better once Holtman decides to keep four capable scorers on the floor with him so that he can more naturally orchestrate an offense that functions without clunkiness because there's no one on the floor passing up obvious shots due to his lack of shooting skill. There's no justifiable reason to keep a player on the floor for the third most minutes when he's effectively last on the team in points per minute, with only deep bench players Colby Bauman and Bowen Harden - both scoring 0.0 ppg - behind him.
And somewhere CHB smiles, knowingly...while echoes of "we got him now' ring in their ears... It was always about PoR. Those poor useful idiots...
What if the player is second on the team in rebounds and leading the team in assists per game?
Fair point. What if someone on the bench that isn't playing as much could fill those stats while shooting at a much better clip? His per 40 minute numbers aren't far ahead of others.
That being said, I think that player is an important piece of this team. He's got a lot of experience. He's a stabilizing presence. He can handle PG duties on a team that only has 1 PG. He can guard multiple positions and defends better than most others on the team.
[Correction to my earlier post: "per minute" should read as "per 40 minutes". The correction is only for clarity, as the statistical relevance and conclusion remains the same.]
1) Those assist numbers are deceptive because the guy ALWAYS PASSES THE BALL because HE CAN'T SHOOT. The guy is 0-5 on 3-pointers, and I counted at least TWO airballs among them. (Said another way, 40 percent of his 3-pointers have been airballs!) Assists are all you can get if you don't shoot the ball and you're on the floor for 27 minutes.
2) Ranking 1st in assists is also deceptive in that Thornton CAN'T get assists by passing to that player - because he CAN'T SHOOT - yet that player can get assists by passing to Thornton, who can shoot. Unfortunately for Thornton, that player is there on the floor for roughly the same number of minutes. There's a reason I made the point the offense can't avoid clunkiness when effective ball movement isn't rewarded with a made shot that is the logical one to take as a result of that ball movement.
3) That 1st in assist ranking is also deceptive because it's a function of duration on the court, not efficiency of overall play. Just imagine if Thornton DIDN'T shoot in the same way that player doesn't - but only passed the ball. I posit not only would he lead in assists, but by a lot. Instead, Thornton plays efficiently in his minutes, scoring, defending and assisting.
4) The opportunity cost is too great in exchange for those numbers. This team will need more scoring against elite competition, and it will never come from the spot he plays with him on the floor. Better to use more of those minutes to develop and integrate the players who can provide it.
This is a woefully undersized team along the front line, and so I get that Holtman thinks he's addressing PF rebounding production, and helping with ball distribution. But he's not going to win that way with such a glaring weakness at the offensive end. It's unavoidable that he'll be exposed by the scoring pressure the elite teams will bring. Better to put his strongest, most efficient offensive groups out there who can match scoring pressure - much like an OL coach will opt to put his best five OL as the starters. It's not ideal, but it produces the best results with what he has on the roster.
And somewhere CHB smiles, knowingly...while echoes of "we got him now' ring in their ears... It was always about PoR. Those poor useful idiots...
I think Holtmann wants the defensive upside brings compared to the younger guys who need to improve. I think Holtmann is pleased with Roddy Gayles defensive awareness him being such a young cat, but where Roddy needs to be more comfortable is on the offensive end and Holtmann has said hes not quite there yet, but certainly has a high ceiling. Sensabugh we all know is a work in progress on the d side. Holden aside from his 3 heave is still struggling to getting used to B1G ball. Its not all so clear cut as you are stating it, all not so cut and dry, and as much as I am not in all stats, algorhythms, analytics, I do know its the immeasurables that often determine your wins or losses.
The fallacy there is that the so-called "immeasurables" are measurable, and as regards the player we're discussing, the net is a negative. Because winning games at the elite level in college basketball is first and foremost about unrelenting scoring pressure. No one has challenged this assertion, and the facts simply won't allow you to do that. You can talk all the "immeasurables" you want regarding a certain player, but they're meaningless if the net is that it prevents your offense from being at the requisite peak efficiency that produces unrelenting scoring pressure. We're not talking about a solid offensive player with "immeasurables" that elevate him above another solid or better player, but about one who is effectively dead last in scoring per 40 minutes. I really am taken aback by how some seem to believe you can hide that in your lineup for 27 minutes against elite teams. You can't do it, and I challenge you and others to show how that would work from the Elite Eight round and beyond. You guys are arguing for this guy and his 27 minutes as if Ohio State is some MAC team with no designs on getting to the Final Four.
Considering how elite level play works in college basketball that's a serious miscalculation on Holtman's part. Besides, I've watched the guy play at both ends of the court and I'm just not seeing the immeasurables you've all bought into, not even defensively. And certainly not at the level that I'd allow him to jam a wrench into the offensive works for 27 minutes.
I think it's foolhardy to believe the guy is going to rebound, assist and defend his way to a net positive - while scoring just over 4 PPG, as if the guys he's playing against aren't putting up numbers in rebounds and assists, and defending too, to counter what he does - but easily outscoring him. The premise becomes more absurd as the competition becomes elite - then more elite.
Last, when you say the younger guys "need to improve", that's not going to happen with them sitting on the bench. They need minutes, and they're available, if only Holtman will make the call, as he did today against UNC. I've never seen the offense look as seamless this season as it did today. Holtman needs to allow the guys with the offensive upside to integrate and develop to be ready to match the scoring pressure of the more elite teams he will face in the regular season, and potentially beyond. And holding them back because they need to improve is inconsistent with the decision he's making regarding this other player who he's not requiring to improve at the offensive end.
BTW, are you really going to take Sensabaugh out of the starting lineup after that showing against UNC?
And somewhere CHB smiles, knowingly...while echoes of "we got him now' ring in their ears... It was always about PoR. Those poor useful idiots...
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/ohio-state/2023.html
Zed, Brice, Bruce, Tanner are all over 48% shooting, they need to shoot more. Bruce and Brice need to continue hitting three's they are both near 50%. Other guys with the lower percentages shooting (not naming names), need to quit shooting contested jump shots so much and find the guys above.
Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect - Woody Hayes
The refs blew the calls those last 5 seconds. Why were we tight with Rutgers? And what the heck does this mean: "He's used to winning and as much as anybody I've ever coached at a young age, he plays to win and never every kid plays to win or understands what playing to win looks like,“ Holtmann said." Holtmann really can't put sentences together or someone can't type?
A very nice surprise! Sometimes the guys who get overlooked are the guys who emerge first. I think they everyone thought Brice was going to be the dominant freshman, including me. Bruce has really produced offensively and I was not expecting that. Of course Brice is scoring at a higher clip but Bruce is the more rounded player. Bruce is the floor general, a good defensive player and a strong points contributor. It’s been really fun watching him control the team so far. Go Buckeyes!!
I said it before the season started he reminds me of cleaves at msu. Hope he sticks around for 4 years.
Same old trope from one of the usuals. He can't score, he shouldn't be playing. He'll never get it. Too bad, he's missing some good bb.
Really good freshman point guard
Would like to see him handle the full court press better but doesn't that fall some on the coach?