Holtmann hitched his wagon to Sueing a couple of years ago. All we heard from the Holtmann apologists last year was how different the season would have been with a healthy Sueing. Some of us saw him as an average complementary player (he might not even be that good). Now that we’ve seen Sueing in action this year, it’s easy to see he wouldn’t have made a difference for the better last season either. Buckeyes will be better off next year without either of them.
I don't think Sueing deserves all the blame, but he seems to be worse in most respects than he was four years ago as a sophomore in the Pac-12.
With the season basically over, it might be time for Holtmann to start prioritizing player development, which means fewer minutes for underachieving sixth-year seniors.
Sueing is a slightly below-average to average wing, that is all--he shouldn't be bringing the ball up the floor or launching 3's as much as he does--that isn't his game.
I doubt he is worse than as a sophomore in Cal. I would imagine there was some sort of structured and organized offense that had the team working together. Sueing is a system style player he does not have the one on one skill set. Which IS Holtman offense, “ please someone go beat your man one on one, ok let’s go, play harder”.
I agree we may push players out but we CANNOT keep trying to play 10 guys...it is insane. How can any unit get comfortable with the CONSTANT line up changes throughout the game....
He needs to pick 5...and have 2-3 off bench. Cannot please everyone....
lmfao who exactly should be playing that isn't? Other than maybe getting more minutes to Gayle don't even bother. Hardman is not a Big 10 player and quite honestly I'm not convinced Etzler is either.
Zed is a good player but if you take Michigan states good teams ten years ago, a guy like Zed is your 6-8th best player. Not your 2nd. Sueing just isn’t very good.
This team needs to penetrate, draw contact or kick. Get Sens into pick and rolls. That’s all we got.
Zed was playing extremely well before the shoulder injury. He led the team in overall (offensive and defensive) efficiency and was rebounding the ball extremely well. It's not a debtate. He is a good player when healthy.
I don't think him being less than 100% is any sort of excuse for our current struggles, though.
I think he was playing like a Top 5 B1G center this season prior to the injury and he still might be. Edey, TJD, Omoruyi, Dickinson, Key in that order.
Not at all surprised with the way things have gone lately. I think the writing was on the wall last year when Holtmann couldn't even get past the second round of the tournament with 2 NBA draft picks.
The productivity is not there to continue giving him almost 30 minutes a game. He turns the ball over casually with no pressure on him. Doesn't hit the glass, doesn't get to the free throw line, misses shots around the basket. More of his minutes should be going to Gayle, Holden, Etzler and/or Eugene Brown, or really anybody else on the bench. Sueing needs to sit.
The productivity is not there to continue giving him almost 30 minutes a game. He turns the ball over casually with no pressure on him. Doesn't hit the glass, doesn't get to the free throw line, misses shots around the basket. More of his minutes should be going to Gayle, Holden, Etzler and/or Eugene Brown, or really anybody else on the bench. Sueing needs to sit.
..and yet Holtmann sits Sensabaugh to "shake things up"...it's mind boggling
Posted it in the Panic article, but I really think this is true. The late UNC and Purdue losses, specifically the Purdue one, broke this team. They never should have blown those 2 late game leads. Holtmann specials. Then you take care of business in (again 3 close losses) against the bottom feeders of the league. I'll allow the @Rutgers loss, but also worth mentioning we had the ball in a tie game at the end of regulation and Brice chucked a 25 ft three off the backboard with 6 seconds on the clock.
Bottom line based on the talent of this team, they should be 15-3, 14-4 at worst. And he we are at 10-8, just an epic meltdown by everyone involved, and it starts with Holtmann. One of the only positive trademarks of his tenure, is usually after doing this in most of January, they somehow turn it around and win a bunch of games we never thought possible in February. But this feels different. The rebound should have already started last night at the latest. It's hard to find more than one or two wins left on the schedule.
I wouldn't go to the extreme of "flat-out awful most of the season" as he has had some solid stretches of play here and there and was great in the Texas Tech game, but I can't completely disagree with your basic point. He is one of three semi-consistent scorers on the team (him, Brice, and Zed) and he does a decent variety of things for the team but he is anti-clutch and has been having WAY too many lapses (defensive, offensive, you name it) this season. He is constantly hurting this team despite the things he does bring to the table. In close games he has been straight up poison on the court.
The reality is I just don't think the current team-make up is good for his role. He is trying to be the guy or co-guy with Brice and the team leader and I don't think that role suits him. And Holtmann isn't doing him or the team any favors by trying to push this "Sueing as playmaker" agenda.
Sueing would have worked great as a supplemental dude last season with Liddell and Branham and Key, I still believe that. He could have just provided solid two-way play and rebounding and been opportunistic about scoring and so on. But him and Sensabaugh don't really jive together well on the court and no one else has stepped up yet to be that better guard/wing counterpart to Brice. So we get Sueing and Sensabaugh trying to make iso plays without much connection to each other or the rest of the team, and when the ball does move around no one else has been able to do much of anything with it other than sometimes Zed, who clearly isn't 100%. It's ugly season.
I hate to see it happen because we do have a good class coming in next year....and we could lose a guy or two on this team but it is time....Gene you can not wait any longer.
Yeah, we know what Sueing is at this point so it’s time to give his minutes to somebody else. Let somebody else like Tanner Holden try their luck and get into the flow of the game with those minutes. He may or may not be as good, but what we are running out there right now is not working. So maybe try something else.
Plays with ZERO confidence. The kid can play. He did last year at Wright State against good competition (17 and 7 at Purdue last year). For some reason, transfers come in (that don't sit a year) and have a SHORT leash with Holtmann. The post from Butler, the scorer from Louisiana, Tanner this year.
Holtmann's rotations are abysmal. 3-4 times a game, I say to myself "look at this lineup." Eugene Brown should not be taking minutes from anyone unless there is foul trouble or injury. I guess that is a different story, for a different thread.
Anyone remember the 20-21 season against Michigan at home? If memory serves me right, we had a shot at the Big 10 title, had won 7 in a row, Michigan was highly ranked, and we had them on the ropes in a highly competitive CBS Sunday game.
Michigan was on a run, but we still had the ball down 1 with a minute or two left. Justice decided to throw a behind the back pass that was terrible, it was stolen and led to a 3 point play the other way. Game over. Ohio State lost 4 in a row. Big 10 title chance was over.
I've attended all but one Ohio State hoops game in Lincoln, until last night. There was no way in hell I was going to drive two hours to watch Holtmann do what he does.
I agree with everybody that Suing is playing terribly and I'd like to see someone else get many/most of his minutes. One other thing I think may also be a problem is that Sensabaugh seems to be playing more for his draft rating than to win. It's hard to figure out what to do with him because he is so much better offensively than anyone else we have, but he never saw a shot he didn't take. Might be actually our best way to score, but might be demoralizing everyone on the court with him.
I do think that Sensabaugh could be the problem. I think that he knows he definitely headed to the draft and his mindset is “I’m going to get mine”. Yes this is a poor attitude but I don’t see anyone else on the team who wants to step up and be the guy. I believe that the coaching staff thinks Sensabaugh is the best option for points and gives him the green light to shoot and shoot and shoot. Which would be fine if he was taking open shots off of set plays but it doesn’t look like we run any kind of structured offense. I think that Sensabaughs free-wheeling and lack of a offensive structure has ruffled the feathers of the rest of the team. Obviously this is my opinion but the culture of this team seems to have been disrupted. I don’t see the enthusiasm or comradery anymore. Line up and take your man one on one is not a game plan. Individualism in basketball is not a good thing! The program has a real problem here and it’s a damn shame.
This could be the case, but my instinct questions if it's the following:
1. Sensabaugh feels pressure to carry the team as our only proven scorer.
2. Justice harbors negative feelings towards Sensabaugh for the attention his talent is getting and the idea that Brice, not Justice should be our go-to guy leading this team.
3. There is not even a semblance of an offensive scheme or strategy. Nothing close. Even when we desperately need a bucket or have an in-bounds opportunity, Holtmann doesn't draw up a halfway decent play. He just instructs who to get the ball to.
4. Because of 1, 2, and especially 3, the result is Sensabuagh forcing shots to try to carry this team (because we sure as hell don't have any type of offensive set that is getting anyone else an open look). Justice as a result is trying to "get his" and play hero ball the other 1/3 of the possessions.
It's a mess and Holtmann doesn't seem to have a clue how to navigate us through this.
could have had roddy gayle ready to be a good second option if holt would have let him play through his yips early in the season...he is clearly the 2nd most talented kid on this team. but, can't let a promising freshman's minutes come at the expense of someone with far less talent that won't be here in a year. if likekele wouldn't have gotten injured, would sensabaugh even be a (semi-) starter? you'd think holtmann would have learned from the dj carton saga that you've gotta give the keys to the most talented guys early, live with the mistakes during non-con, and then be peaking at the end. now i think he'll never figure it out.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
In his 6 years here, Holtmann has had plenty of talent to work with. The following guys who have been on his roster here are either currently in the NBA or previously played in the NBA.
Keita Bates-Diop, Jae'Sean Tate, Micah Potter (has played in handful of games the last 2 years), Duane Washington, EJ Liddell, Malaki Branham, and likely Sensabaugh this year.
Add in guys like Kaleb Wesson (playing in the Philippines), CJ Jackson (playing in Sweden), CJ Walker (playing in Germany), DJ Carton (in the G League), Kam Williams (who used to play in Denmark), Keyshawn Woods (has played in Europe for several years), Meechie Johnson who is starting and scoring 12.5 per game at S Carolina after sitting on the bench here, Jamari Wheeler (playing in Europe), Cedric Russell (playing in Serbia) after being unable to start here for some reason.
plus solid role guys like Kyle Young, Andre Wesson and Justin Ahrens. Sueing and Key will likely play somewhere beyond OSU. Heck even Joey Brunk is playing in Poland.
IE he has had talent, But the results stay where they are..
but I don’t see anyone else on the team who wants to step up and be the guy.
I alluded to this on another thread--we don't have a floor leader, or a leader of any sort to be honest...you'd think it'd be a 6th year guy, but he seems to want no part of it
Some people are just not cut out to be leaders and that’s fine. But don’t tell us coming into a season that we will count on this guy or these are the guys that the youngsters will look up to. If I’m Thornton, our point guard/our floor general, I take it upon myself to at least try and lead. If you are a point guard and you are not a leader, then the wrong players are being recruited.
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Tough to watch! That last play sums it all up.
Louie Kitchen
I’m having randy Ayer’s flashbacks!
… and a lazy pass it was!
BuckeyeRocket
Holtmann hitched his wagon to Sueing a couple of years ago. All we heard from the Holtmann apologists last year was how different the season would have been with a healthy Sueing. Some of us saw him as an average complementary player (he might not even be that good). Now that we’ve seen Sueing in action this year, it’s easy to see he wouldn’t have made a difference for the better last season either. Buckeyes will be better off next year without either of them.
OSUCOM 2008 Graduate. Go Bucks!
I don't think Sueing deserves all the blame, but he seems to be worse in most respects than he was four years ago as a sophomore in the Pac-12.
With the season basically over, it might be time for Holtmann to start prioritizing player development, which means fewer minutes for underachieving sixth-year seniors.
The most "loud mouth, disrespect" poster on 11W.
Sueing is a slightly below-average to average wing, that is all--he shouldn't be bringing the ball up the floor or launching 3's as much as he does--that isn't his game.
I doubt he is worse than as a sophomore in Cal. I would imagine there was some sort of structured and organized offense that had the team working together. Sueing is a system style player he does not have the one on one skill set. Which IS Holtman offense, “ please someone go beat your man one on one, ok let’s go, play harder”.
Holtmann will never willingly do that. He will instead ride a short bench the rest of the way and push players out the door.
I don't buy one goddam drop of gas in the state of Michigan!
I agree we may push players out but we CANNOT keep trying to play 10 guys...it is insane. How can any unit get comfortable with the CONSTANT line up changes throughout the game....
He needs to pick 5...and have 2-3 off bench. Cannot please everyone....
lmfao who exactly should be playing that isn't? Other than maybe getting more minutes to Gayle don't even bother. Hardman is not a Big 10 player and quite honestly I'm not convinced Etzler is either.
Now the apologists will bring up Zed Key playing injured. It is always excuses for Holtmann.
Zed is a good player but if you take Michigan states good teams ten years ago, a guy like Zed is your 6-8th best player. Not your 2nd. Sueing just isn’t very good.
This team needs to penetrate, draw contact or kick. Get Sens into pick and rolls. That’s all we got.
the good thad matta teams don't even likely offer key. or frankly anyone else on this team other than the freshmen.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
Zed was playing extremely well before the shoulder injury. He led the team in overall (offensive and defensive) efficiency and was rebounding the ball extremely well. It's not a debtate. He is a good player when healthy.
I don't think him being less than 100% is any sort of excuse for our current struggles, though.
the empire never ended
Is Zed a top 3 center in the Big Ten? Top 5?
He has played well in spells (last year vs Duke for example), but I don't look at a team of Zed's and say "That's a Big Ten champion team right there"
I think he was playing like a Top 5 B1G center this season prior to the injury and he still might be. Edey, TJD, Omoruyi, Dickinson, Key in that order.
the empire never ended
Not at all surprised with the way things have gone lately. I think the writing was on the wall last year when Holtmann couldn't even get past the second round of the tournament with 2 NBA draft picks.
Neither of those guys were ball controlling guards and you need that in tourney.
Last 3 games for Sueing:
8-33 FG (34.8%), 0-6 3P (0.0%), 8-12 FT (66.7%), 12 REB, 0 STEALS, 8 ASSISTS, 9 TURNOVERS, 24 PTS, 92 MINS
The productivity is not there to continue giving him almost 30 minutes a game. He turns the ball over casually with no pressure on him. Doesn't hit the glass, doesn't get to the free throw line, misses shots around the basket. More of his minutes should be going to Gayle, Holden, Etzler and/or Eugene Brown, or really anybody else on the bench. Sueing needs to sit.
..and yet Holtmann sits Sensabaugh to "shake things up"...it's mind boggling
Faster, tougher, and more violent...
this program is sliding fast and it's painful to see the schott with more and more empty seats. time for overhaul, mr smith
klusewski
This made me laugh.
I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.
I Believe In Ohio State.
Posted it in the Panic article, but I really think this is true. The late UNC and Purdue losses, specifically the Purdue one, broke this team. They never should have blown those 2 late game leads. Holtmann specials. Then you take care of business in (again 3 close losses) against the bottom feeders of the league. I'll allow the @Rutgers loss, but also worth mentioning we had the ball in a tie game at the end of regulation and Brice chucked a 25 ft three off the backboard with 6 seconds on the clock.
Bottom line based on the talent of this team, they should be 15-3, 14-4 at worst. And he we are at 10-8, just an epic meltdown by everyone involved, and it starts with Holtmann. One of the only positive trademarks of his tenure, is usually after doing this in most of January, they somehow turn it around and win a bunch of games we never thought possible in February. But this feels different. The rebound should have already started last night at the latest. It's hard to find more than one or two wins left on the schedule.
Sueing is a major issue for this team. He been flat out awful most of the season and holtmann just keeps putting him out there.
Stay gold, Ponyboy.
I wouldn't go to the extreme of "flat-out awful most of the season" as he has had some solid stretches of play here and there and was great in the Texas Tech game, but I can't completely disagree with your basic point. He is one of three semi-consistent scorers on the team (him, Brice, and Zed) and he does a decent variety of things for the team but he is anti-clutch and has been having WAY too many lapses (defensive, offensive, you name it) this season. He is constantly hurting this team despite the things he does bring to the table. In close games he has been straight up poison on the court.
The reality is I just don't think the current team-make up is good for his role. He is trying to be the guy or co-guy with Brice and the team leader and I don't think that role suits him. And Holtmann isn't doing him or the team any favors by trying to push this "Sueing as playmaker" agenda.
Sueing would have worked great as a supplemental dude last season with Liddell and Branham and Key, I still believe that. He could have just provided solid two-way play and rebounding and been opportunistic about scoring and so on. But him and Sensabaugh don't really jive together well on the court and no one else has stepped up yet to be that better guard/wing counterpart to Brice. So we get Sueing and Sensabaugh trying to make iso plays without much connection to each other or the rest of the team, and when the ball does move around no one else has been able to do much of anything with it other than sometimes Zed, who clearly isn't 100%. It's ugly season.
the empire never ended
I hate to see it happen because we do have a good class coming in next year....and we could lose a guy or two on this team but it is time....Gene you can not wait any longer.
Yeah, we know what Sueing is at this point so it’s time to give his minutes to somebody else. Let somebody else like Tanner Holden try their luck and get into the flow of the game with those minutes. He may or may not be as good, but what we are running out there right now is not working. So maybe try something else.
Holden is a very viable alternative........Give that kid 30-35 minutes a game and I think you'll be surprised.......
Saban on a cart eating cold pizza
Has holden scored 30 points COMBINED/TOTAL this season?
Plays with ZERO confidence. The kid can play. He did last year at Wright State against good competition (17 and 7 at Purdue last year). For some reason, transfers come in (that don't sit a year) and have a SHORT leash with Holtmann. The post from Butler, the scorer from Louisiana, Tanner this year.
Holtmann's rotations are abysmal. 3-4 times a game, I say to myself "look at this lineup." Eugene Brown should not be taking minutes from anyone unless there is foul trouble or injury. I guess that is a different story, for a different thread.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/ohio-state/2023.html
Anyone remember the 20-21 season against Michigan at home? If memory serves me right, we had a shot at the Big 10 title, had won 7 in a row, Michigan was highly ranked, and we had them on the ropes in a highly competitive CBS Sunday game.
Michigan was on a run, but we still had the ball down 1 with a minute or two left. Justice decided to throw a behind the back pass that was terrible, it was stolen and led to a 3 point play the other way. Game over. Ohio State lost 4 in a row. Big 10 title chance was over.
Sueings made a lot of those shitty passes. 3 or 4 a game
I've attended all but one Ohio State hoops game in Lincoln, until last night. There was no way in hell I was going to drive two hours to watch Holtmann do what he does.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Tailgate Fare Historical Archive
I agree with everybody that Suing is playing terribly and I'd like to see someone else get many/most of his minutes. One other thing I think may also be a problem is that Sensabaugh seems to be playing more for his draft rating than to win. It's hard to figure out what to do with him because he is so much better offensively than anyone else we have, but he never saw a shot he didn't take. Might be actually our best way to score, but might be demoralizing everyone on the court with him.
Love the Buckeyes
At times it seems like its 5 on 1 with Sensabaugh against the other team.
I do think that Sensabaugh could be the problem. I think that he knows he definitely headed to the draft and his mindset is “I’m going to get mine”. Yes this is a poor attitude but I don’t see anyone else on the team who wants to step up and be the guy. I believe that the coaching staff thinks Sensabaugh is the best option for points and gives him the green light to shoot and shoot and shoot. Which would be fine if he was taking open shots off of set plays but it doesn’t look like we run any kind of structured offense. I think that Sensabaughs free-wheeling and lack of a offensive structure has ruffled the feathers of the rest of the team. Obviously this is my opinion but the culture of this team seems to have been disrupted. I don’t see the enthusiasm or comradery anymore. Line up and take your man one on one is not a game plan. Individualism in basketball is not a good thing! The program has a real problem here and it’s a damn shame.
This could be the case, but my instinct questions if it's the following:
1. Sensabaugh feels pressure to carry the team as our only proven scorer.
2. Justice harbors negative feelings towards Sensabaugh for the attention his talent is getting and the idea that Brice, not Justice should be our go-to guy leading this team.
3. There is not even a semblance of an offensive scheme or strategy. Nothing close. Even when we desperately need a bucket or have an in-bounds opportunity, Holtmann doesn't draw up a halfway decent play. He just instructs who to get the ball to.
4. Because of 1, 2, and especially 3, the result is Sensabuagh forcing shots to try to carry this team (because we sure as hell don't have any type of offensive set that is getting anyone else an open look). Justice as a result is trying to "get his" and play hero ball the other 1/3 of the possessions.
It's a mess and Holtmann doesn't seem to have a clue how to navigate us through this.
i'd be more upset about it if literally anyone on the team other than mcneil sometimes behind the 3-point line could make anything reliably ever.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
could have had roddy gayle ready to be a good second option if holt would have let him play through his yips early in the season...he is clearly the 2nd most talented kid on this team. but, can't let a promising freshman's minutes come at the expense of someone with far less talent that won't be here in a year. if likekele wouldn't have gotten injured, would sensabaugh even be a (semi-) starter? you'd think holtmann would have learned from the dj carton saga that you've gotta give the keys to the most talented guys early, live with the mistakes during non-con, and then be peaking at the end. now i think he'll never figure it out.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
stupid mistake by me - family issue for ice, not injured. but point stands.
the kids are playing their tail off, and the coaches are screwing it up! - JLS
In his 6 years here, Holtmann has had plenty of talent to work with. The following guys who have been on his roster here are either currently in the NBA or previously played in the NBA.
Keita Bates-Diop, Jae'Sean Tate, Micah Potter (has played in handful of games the last 2 years), Duane Washington, EJ Liddell, Malaki Branham, and likely Sensabaugh this year.
Add in guys like Kaleb Wesson (playing in the Philippines), CJ Jackson (playing in Sweden), CJ Walker (playing in Germany), DJ Carton (in the G League), Kam Williams (who used to play in Denmark), Keyshawn Woods (has played in Europe for several years), Meechie Johnson who is starting and scoring 12.5 per game at S Carolina after sitting on the bench here, Jamari Wheeler (playing in Europe), Cedric Russell (playing in Serbia) after being unable to start here for some reason.
plus solid role guys like Kyle Young, Andre Wesson and Justin Ahrens. Sueing and Key will likely play somewhere beyond OSU. Heck even Joey Brunk is playing in Poland.
IE he has had talent, But the results stay where they are..
I alluded to this on another thread--we don't have a floor leader, or a leader of any sort to be honest...you'd think it'd be a 6th year guy, but he seems to want no part of it
Faster, tougher, and more violent...
Some people are just not cut out to be leaders and that’s fine. But don’t tell us coming into a season that we will count on this guy or these are the guys that the youngsters will look up to. If I’m Thornton, our point guard/our floor general, I take it upon myself to at least try and lead. If you are a point guard and you are not a leader, then the wrong players are being recruited.