I never understand why people want super star ex players with zero coaching creds to coach us. Maybe if they do the Deion Sanders thing and start at the bottom that's fine, but plucking Chris Spielman from the broadcasting booth (this was a popular wish) and giving hm the clipboard was just crazy thinking. Let's see LBJ coach a summer league, then be an end of the bench coach at Ohio Northern or IUPU or someplace like that.
His extension has nothing to do if he stays or goes. If the right people with money want him gone he is gone. If the people with money don't care then he stays.
Being a College of Charleston grad and currently living in Charleston, leave Pat alone. He’s done a helluva job bringing in D II players, transfers and recruiting at a high level. Excitement and enthusiasm is back like it was when Coach Kresse and Cremins were here. He’s in the stands talking to students and fans after games and has the program rolling. 18 straight W’s. Not sure how long he will be here but def going to enjoy it , he has little pressure, lives in paradise and doesn’t play second fiddle to footballl
I've seen some people on twitter even mention calling Chris Mack. They've said, well he's been to more Sweet 16's than Holtmann has. He's an Ohio native and he can do better with the same talent Holtmann's bringing in. Someone responded saying, no I don't want to replace Chris with a Chris haha. Kind of funny.
That’s an improvement …just looking at Holtmann’s clueless ass run around clapping his hands like Brady Hole saying let’s go and push it the hole game makes me sick!!
I sure hope the Holtmann error is over by years end , why we settled for someone of his caliber with a mediocre resume is a modern f-cking mystery , has never won shit at any level, but what a great idea to dump millions to a clown in over his head from day one in a dog eat dog BIG….major head scratcher there!!
@NWOBuckeye It all depends on what the OSU athletic department and the boosters are willing to spend on a top tier coach. Holtmann makes anywhere from 3.5 million to 4 million a year and what his current buyout is. An elite top tier basketball coach is going to draw anywhere from 7 to 10 million a year when I mean elite top tier I am talking an Izzo, Self, Wright. They aren't going to get these guys but they need to make sure their buyouts are pretty reasonable. You might try to convince Jay Wright and Chris Beard you could get at a reasonable rate. OSU has enough shrinks at that school he could get the appropriate counseling 7 days a week for his alcoholoism and anger issues. They could offer Sean Miller, everyone is buying players in this new NIL era so it's not a big deal now.
I don't follow hoops like I use to but this is a very new team. They may jell around tournament time and we can be eating our words in March. They have lost some they shouldn't of late but maybe like I said new team it could come around. I feel also no matter who we get recruiting is hard here not like years ago and can't keep gtreat home talent home.
Hey it is not 1960 anymore and we are not a Basketball powerhouse....we are a football school so be happy with every so often we get a nice run in March Madness.....
I would love Donovan. Don't know what his interest is in returning to college ball. OSU would probably need to pay more than what he makes with the Bulls ($6 million a year base salary). Probably not gonna happen.
Florida did it...Won Basketball Title and Football Title in the same year...no excuse for Ohio State not to be able to do that.
Yeah, I don't think you to remind Ohio State fans that Florida won Basketball and Football National Championships in the same year since both were against the Buckeyes....
Florida did it with an exceptional recruiting class that had guys who were mostly from pretty well to do families that decided to run it back for another year.
Love that attitude , but just a few years back weren’t we challenging in both? Oh and by the way “ every so often a nice run in March Madness” never happens with Holtmann
Well Matta is t walking thru that door anytime soon. Unfortunately the fans and the players are stuck with Holtmann thanks to a dumb decision by Gene Smith
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I’m gonna argue for the sake of arguing. You’ve got to be like 24 years old. Go and count how many final 4s and sweet 16s we have. Matta was an aberration, not the norm. I get that Matta makes it possible for us to be upper echelon big ten, but long history says not probable to repeat those kind of results.
Ohio State led the conference in Big Ten titles with 22 when Holtmann took over. You think we got 5 in the early 60s and Matta magically won 17 straight? It takes decades of multiple titles to get to 22 total.
OSU still leads the conference in Final Fours with 11. Matta had 2. We had 3 in the early 60s. That means we had 6 other damn good seasons somewhere along the line! And that’s not even mentioning years like 1991, 1992, 2010, 2011, 2013 when we were so damn good and failed to make the FF.
Ran the B1G? Seems that was MSU, not us. And sometimes illinois, Matt Sylvester’s clutch shot notwithstanding. We contended to be sure, but we ain’t run shit since Fred Taylor.
Yes …. They ran the B1G, literally was a period of time when OSU was running MSU out the gym with fair ease…… hell there was a period of time when osu never lost double digit games in a seaon … are you young? because up until matta’s last couple of years … OSU led the B1G in virtually EVERY category except National Championships , there was a time when you could literally bet OSU to win the B1G & B1G tournament and people would say …. Easy bet
Chris Collins always has teams that are better than the sum of their parts. Played at Duke, coached at Duke under Krzyzewski before taking the job at Northwestern. His teams have shown the ability to execute and run sets efficiently, even though he doesn't have the talent that other schools have. He's as a good a coach as there is in the Big 10 and has done a great job at Northwestern. No reason not to consider him.
We destroyed Northwestern at Northwestern this year.
If we start with his Butler tenure, Holtmann has accomplished significantly more than Collins as a HC every season up until this point. The ONE single year in nine years that Collins finished better than 9th in the B1G was when he tied for 5th in 2016-2017. That was also the only time Collins has made the Dance. Northwestern went to the R32. Chris Holtmann, at Butler, went to the S16 that year.
Holtmann did not have a better talent level at Butler than Collins has had at Northwestern. But Holt never missed the Dance at Butler and won 4 Tourney games in 3 years. That's 3 more than Collins has won in 9 years as a HC.
Do we even need to compare the B1G results?
I really don't understand this "hire Chris Collins" line of thought, at all. You think Collins would get insane talent to come to OSU or something?
Holtmann did not have a better talent level at Butler than Collins has had at Northwestern.
I have no way of determining the validity of this statement. I do know that Northwestern has been the perennial doormat in the Big 10 for decades, however since Collins arrived at Northwestern he has upped their level of play, they execute their offense and they are a tough out regardless of who they play, despite not having much in the way of talent, and their lesser talent level is due to better academics. Strictly from a talent standpoint, they start with one massive strike against them because of academics, so Northwestern starts with a smaller potential talent pool than do other programs, both within the Big 10 and elsewhere.
However, I don't think that was really your point. I think your main point of contention is incapsulated in this sentence:
You think Collins would get insane talent to come to OSU or something?
I have no way of determining this either. Outside of a Calipari, I don't know who would get "insane talent" to come to Ohio State. If that's your goal, then give me your list of (realistic) candidates that will demonstrably provide the "insane talent."
Collins hasn't achieved much of anything in 9 years at a power conference program, that's the main gist. He only once has had his team in the top half of the B1G, he has only made the Dance once, etc.
My question about talent is me trying to understand why you would want to hire Collins, that's it. Because there is virtually nothing on his current resume that should encourage OSU to hire him. You're right that the academics situation at Northwestern is a bit more limiting. That said, the school is in a good basketball state, is Chicago-adjacent, and it is a power conference program. Collins has had numerous T150 guys and a decent number of 4-star guys and only 1 year out of 9 did he do anything half-decent with them.
So I'm assuming you think Collins would get exceptional talent at OSU and that he would coach them well enough to far exceed anything he has done to date. For me, personally, I'd rather promote Diebler than hire Collins because Diebler has shown at what level he can recruit to OSU and I think it is the optimal level that OSU needs.
So I'm assuming you think Collins would get exceptional talent at OSU
I answered that question already by saying I don't know. I'm sure Calipari can provide that "insane talent" that you're requiring. Outside of Calipari, I can think of a couple of names that might bring "insane talent," but those guys already have a good gig elsewhere and so, they are not coming here.
You're the one arguing against Collins because in your opinion he can't get the "insane talent" that you require, so I asked you for a list of candidates that can provide the "insane talent" and the only name you provide is the name of one of our assistant coaches?
For me, personally, I'd rather promote Diebler than hire Collins because Diebler has shown at what level he can recruit to OSU and I think it is the optimal level that OSU needs.
You went from "insane talent" to "optimal OSU level talent."
If your answer is Jake Diebler, as the "optimal level" recruiter, than you're hiring a guy that has no head coaching experience. None. Not bashing Diebler, but I thought the idea was to get better results on the floor with the talent that we have on hand; talent that he has recruited. If Diebler was the answer, wouldn't we be seeing some of the results on the floor by now? Where's the improvement on the floor that would leave me without a doubt that Diebler was the right man for the job?
I'm trying to figure out why you want to hire a coach who is worse than the one we have and who has already shown he can't do anything in the B1G. At any rate, you can't seem to explain why, so I'm gonna stop trying to figure it out.
Diebler is not the ideal hire in my mind, but at least he has shown he can recruit T50 talent, which is more than Collins has done. Guys like Pat Kelsey, Dennis Gates, and Jerome Tang are intriguing to me because at least there is potential there. With Collins we have already seen what he can do in the B1G and it's not much. In fact, it's considerably worse than Holtmann. And there is no debating that. You want to bring talent pool into the equation, what about all the injury issues Holtmann has had to deal with? If we're gonna let the results do the talking, that needs to apply to any potential candidates, too. And Collins' results are bad. Period.
I'm trying to figure out why you want to hire a coach who is worse than the one we have and who has already shown he can't do anything in the B1G. At any rate, you can't seem to explain why, so I'm gonna stop trying to figure it out.
I explained it fully in my reply to Wigmon, which I won't duplicate here. He's exceeded expectations at Northwestern. He's a better coach than his record indicates, a solid X's and O's guy, and has earned the respect of every coach and program in the league.
Guys like Pat Kelsey, Dennis Gates, and Jerome Tang are intriguing to me because at least there is potential there.
Dennis Gates was just hired by Missouri last year. Gates' annual salary starts at $2.5 million in 2022-23 and will increase every year up to $3 million in 2027-28. He's not coming here.
Jerome Tang was just hired by Kansas State last year. Tang agreed to a six-year deal worth $14.1 million with the Wildcats. He's not coming here.
Pat Kelsey coached 9 years at Winthrop and he's in his 2nd season with College of Charleston. Not exactly name-brand power 5 schools. If he's your splash hire, so be it. But I'll grant you this, of the 3 that you named, he might be the only one to take the position. From an X's and O's standpoint, I have no idea what his teams run, so I don't know if he's any better than we have now.
Also, according to Wikipedia: "In 2017, Kelsey was hired as the head coach at Massachusetts, but returned to Winthrop two days after accepting the position, citing personal reasons. Kelsey informed UMass Athletic Director Ryan Bamford of his decision 25 minutes before the scheduled press conference to formally introduce Kelsey to the press and university community." Walking out on that position, in that manner, 25 minutes before the press conference, can't have done Kelsey any favors and it certainly doesn't look good on his resume.
Edit: I also agree with what GoNutz27 wrote below, asking Clark Kellogg and Jimmy Jackson to help with the search. Their input might be helpful.
And as for the other guys, I am not necessarily gung-ho about any of them, they are just names that people are throwing out there that I agree at least have potential to do well here if we hired them. I appreciate you bringing up their contract details because I don't know if people realize, yes, that is the kind of money that OSU would need to match and exceed just to get a HC who has done anything at this level so far, not to mention buy outs (and Gates and Tang are just in their first year head coaching at power conference schools). Kelsey hasn't done much of anything yet in terms of impressive wins or recruiting so while he has won a lot of games with CoC this season and would be a bargain deal, it'd be a total gamble. I don't know enough about him to comment on possible personality issues.
With Diebler I think my thing is locking in his recruiting ability could be important. OSU is not going to be able to reload on one and dones constantly so T75-T40 recruits is the sweet spot for this program and Diebler was able to get 7 guys like that in 2 classes, all but one of them from out of state. That's not nothing. And I don't know if scheme has been as big an issue with this team as motivation and execution. If the HC has a good relationship with his guys and they follow him, it can pay dividends. So that's my thought process there.
Again, Diebler would be somewhat of a gamble, too, since he has no HC experience other than when Holtmann was out. And if I had my druthers we would hire someone like Billy Donovan or Nate Oats, but then we're talking pretty unrealistically.
I realize expectations at NW aren't great at NW, but in 9 seasons he has only qualified 1 time for any post season tourney (NCAA, NIT, CIB, etc). Let me repeat, in 9 seasons he has only had 1 without a losing record. Add that he is worse than his predecessor (Carmody) at NW who actually built the program into something somewhat respectable.
I don't think he's a bad coach and seems like a good guy, but no way we'd get rid of Holtmann for Collins.
Anyone with a personality and at least some basketball IQ would be an upgrade. Need Clark Kellogg and Jimmy Jackson to help with the coaching search. They’re around enough coaches to know who would be a good hire for the Buckeye program.
I would prefer Holtman hire an X and Os guy on the bench Pay whatever it takes to get a guy that can implement an offense and draw up plays. It’s not his skill and he doesn’t need to do it so go hire someone. He’s going to have some talent to work with
I am thick skinned as an ox. I have been on here for almost 5 years and have never asked for a comment to be removed or did something you would consider "thin skinned" or ever mentioned being offended. I pride myself on being relentlessly positive and respectful. I feel child molestation is a reasonable place to draw the fucking line. Saying Holtmann looks like a child molester was a joke is unfathomable to me. Saying the world is full of snowflakes doesn't give you the right to throw around "Cho mo" comments.
Negativity is a choice I seldom make. Everything has a positive spin. Sometimes you simply have to look a little harder
Ooo we've got the internet tough guy in nwobuckeye over here everyone wqtch ouch he's smoked many ppl before. Also I find it funny you think you have the right to throw allegations like that around and are calling other ppl a little bitch. I'm glad you love saying false things and trying to ruin ppls reputations with bullshit allegations. Goodjob man your a worthless piece of shit and shown it with these comments. I hope you don't have kids cause I'd Hate for them to be raised by you. Also as a victim of being molested as a child by my grandpa you can go fuck yourself with throwing around a accusation like that.
Holtmann will be here next year. Gene Smith made this worse by giving him a 3 year extension so this guy has five years left on his contract. Gene Smith needs to retire and become the next Big Ten Commissioner at least to get things back in Ohio State's favor from a conference standpoint.
I do think you’re right about Smith. He lost the fastball and he’s made some head scratching decisions. Hell, going back 12 years when OSU should have been playing for a national championship. That was unforgivable
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Wait, you sure can’t say coach H is living off his ability to coach defense. Terrible offense I agree and it’s almost just playground on offense but on defense they are awful. Rebounding…. Wow we could keep going. Let me remove okparo. He can play great defense but nobody else can guard.
I’m actually impressed the people at Nova stuck with Jay for that long. And it paid off in a big way. I don’t think Holtmann has that kind of slack at OSU. I could see this year and next possibly
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Probably cause he took a bunch of low ranked recruits to the elite 8 and sweet 16 …. In his first 5 years & despite rebuilding…. Made 4 sweet 16s , 2 elite 8s & a final four within first 10 years
Will probably never see that kind of run again in college ball. If you think Holtmann is capable of that, I got some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Wright had the same number of top 100 RSCI players Holtmann did their first years at their schools. Wrights 2nd and 3rd years he had 8 top 100 RSCI players and they didn't make the NCAA tournament. There is no doubt Wright recruited better early on than Holtmann, but be honest, if Holtmann had missed the NCAA tourney each of his first three years with the talent Wright had, the 11W gurus would have all been calling for his job. No doubt Wrights 4-6th year were better than Holts, but his first three were clearly worse.
Holtmann is just now recruiting well enough to compete nationally, but the first class are just frosh. Years 1-3 exceeded everyones expectations given the state of the roster. Year 4 was cut short by Covid. Year 5 was a really good year as we reached top 4 in the nation through the middle of Februrary, then the injury bug hit and Washington shot poorly in the NCAA tourney. Last year was an OK year given the injury situation. This year was a question mark coming in due to the 2 best players declaring for the draft and a whole bunch of graduations. The team has reasonable talent, but the team doesn't have cohesion on either end of the floor. We'll see how the season plays out.
I get it, post season success is all non-basketball centric fans care about and admittedly, it is the most important part of the season and where coaches earn their money. Holtmann's contract goes through 2028. He's going to at least get one more year to show what he can do with better recruiting classes and I'm fine with that.
I thought he sounded like a coach that was trying to be patient, but a bit exacerbated by players not following his instructions. I mean when you make it clear coming out of a timeout that you are in a 3/4 court trap and 30 seconds later after a made basket 3 guys are jogging down the court with their backs to the ball, what are you to do? I think people fail to understand the challenge coming into the season with 7 new faces in the rotation and 2 of the three returnees that you hope can lead the team missed significant time over the summer and pre-season.
I get that some would like him to tear into guys, but thats just not his MO. He's gonna get through next year at least, so we'll see how it plays out.
This is fair but fails to explain why his teams are consistently losing 3 games a year to teams that fail to win 15 games (far inferior opponents).
That is coaching. He fails to prepare his team, fails to motivate them, and doesn’t have the X’s and O’s to generate scoring opportunities (instead he just hopes his scorers will go win with 1:1 ball late). That’s why we are losing 3 games a year to Minnesota/Nebraska type opponents.
Sure, better talent will equate to more overall wins but so long as he’s the coach he will get out coached in a handful of close games that are critical in order to win a conference title. The All Access did him no favors.
^^^This^^^. A coach actually has to draw up something in the form of X’s and O’s To get a numbers advantage for his players. It’s all about getting a mismatch . Holtmann is severely conflict aversed. He just doesn’t make adjustments or he doesn’t chew into his guys for trying to play hero ball. This team didn’t do that earlier in the season. Now at the end of every damn game, which inevitably are close, one guy possesses the ball and the others stand around waiting for a highly improbable shot to fall. That is on the player but mainly, it’s a function of the inability of the coach
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I don't think we've had superior talent at OSU from the beginning of his tenure. My biggest complaint about him has been his recruiting and whether he can recruit well enough to take us to the next level. Last year had 2 really good players, but the supporting cast was not that strong.
Recruiting is 100% on the coaches and frankly wasn't good enough years 2-5 (gets a bit of a break on the first 2 classes due to late hire and state of the program). It seems to have picked up. Had a 1 and done last year. Have a 1 and done this year and 3 guys that should have very good careers at OSU if they stick around. Next years class again has top 60 guys that are likely to be hear at least 2-3 years. He's going to get a chance to see what he can do with better recruiting classes.
Unfortunately todays game was a familiar script. Two yrs ago with NBA talent on the team and we can’t get it done. Same last year and now we seem to see things playing out again. His teams have too many turnovers, don’t suffocate on defense, can’t break a press, don’t have any creativity on offense and seldom produce after a time out. Holtmans a good guy and can recruit but he doesn’t seem to be able to get the best out of them.
Theres no shame in moving on and no one has to be hateful about it either. I’ve enjoyed Genes tenure here at THE. He has done really well throughout the program bringing in folks that can develop fine, respectable young men and women. And most of those coaches do so and have winning programs too.
I would love to see Chris Holtman succeed here, but it just has not worked out. It would not hurt the program to part ways and bring in some fresh blood.
I would roll the dice and take someone like Dru Joyce II, longtime coach of St. V-M. He’s an Ohio coaching legend, he is respected by the kids in the community, he’s an X’s and O’s guy and he can recruit the hell out of the state.
(Not that this would or should factor into anything, but it also wouldn’t hurt that he’s LeBron’s high school coach.)
The correct answer is because people don't understand what downvotes are for, but I think it's because hiring a high school coach directly to a major D1 basketball program likely sets the program back years. It's just two very different things. It would be like hiring the county commissioner from some small town to be your Governor. It might be the same sport, but it's a whole different job description.
Eric Musselman may have been born in Ohio when his dad was coaching at Ashland, and moved back here when his dad was coaching the Cavs, but, I wouldn’t consider him an “Ohio kid”. Furthermore, you do realize that his dad was the coach at Minnesota during the Mugging, right? That move wouldn’t sit well with the old-timers, nor would it with me.
You mean the old timers half asleep at the game. Maybe ruffling the feathers will wake them up from their slumber. I literally have watched old ladies knitting at games. But either way Musselman can coach!
Why should the son pay for the sins of the father....
Musselman is a hell of a coach...who the hell ever thought Arkansas would become strong again...nobody has ever gotten that program to be good since Nolan Richardson's 2 year run of dominance.
That display of ugliness has to be one of the worst incidents recorded on a basketball court. Up there with Kermit Washington nearly killing Rudy Tomjanovich
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
We don't need to vilify his son for what he did - allowing an utter assault of the OSU basketball team that left players hospitalized with bad injuries.
But we also don't need to open our arms and award him a multi-million dollar contract to come coach here.
Schoedinger or some funeral home chain should have ads at the Schottenstein (Morgue) Center. Have their ad slogan where cheering goes to die and have the 10 off percent discount coupon as Basket casket. I just hope Gene Smith terminates Holtmann from his contract in a week to a few weeks just to end the fans suffering.
No, but he shouldn't be made head coach of the school that his father screwed out of a big 10 title by an unprecedented on court mugging, that if it happened today, would probably result in the school being suspended from Big10 play for at least 1 year, if not given the death penalty.
Screwing OSU out of a Big Ten title is the tip of the ice berg. Fred Taylor was as good of a coach as there was outside of LA in college hoops - this event effectively broke coach Taylor because the Big ten did nothing about this assault.
My FiL has been a season ticket holder since the 70’s. I’ll ask him again, he knows his history, but I don’t think he’d be mad at the son for leading us to prosperity.
Musselman. We may be a forgiving society and maybe time is intended to cure all wounds but if there is one thing in college hoops I never want to hear it’s a Mussleman coaching at OSU.
this is either some fabulous trolling or a complete lack of history of our program.
Holtmann probably has until end of next season, at least, unless things go way off the rails before then (and they might).
Diebler is a great recruiter. You could promote him and probably keep the classes intact. Maybe he pans out as a HC. Could be worth the risk.
Aside from that, for me it's Nate Oats. Would OSU pay the necessary amount to get him? Probably not.
Dennis Gates is worth keeping an eye on. The power conference sample size with him is very small and Missouri doesn't play a lick of defense, so I have my concerns about whether he'd be able to elevate a program that plays in the B1G. But, like I said, worth keeping an eye on.
I like Holtmann a lot. He's not nearly as bad a coach as many think. His teams are consistently competitive, and that is no easy thing in college basketball (btw, lol at the Chris Mack suggestion). But whether it's losing to PSU three times, or blowing leads, or not being able to overcome bad roster luck, or this season where we seem borderline incapable of winning close games, it's starting to feel like Holtmann has mastered the art of coming up short.
I am in a weird spot where I can no longer advocate for keeping Holtmann, the pattern of frustration has become much too wearisome, but I also don't have a lot of optimism about what the next move for OSU might be. The most realistic option that could avoid a major rebuild and MIGHT work out is trying Diebler as the HC. With attendance being so poor even when we have a ranked team and with athletic profits down in general, I just don't believe that OSU will come anywhere near offering basketball coach candidates a T10 salary. And I think that's what it would take to get a guaranteed upgrade right now. So if we want to move on I think we'll probably have to gamble, and Diebler seems about as good a bet as any as he should be able to keep most of the 2022 and 2023 guys onboard as he was the primary recruiter for basically all of them, and should continue to recruit well in the future. But his assistant hires, particularly finding a great "defensive coordinator," would be key.
Diebler would need to grab a guy like Juwan Howard did (the old St.Bonaventure coach, grizzled vet) to give them some serious X & O mojo which I think CH seriously lacks (end of half/game plays). I wonder if a Beulein would consider?
I know they have a lot of debt from Covid but still that $100mm Football TV contract helps some. Football and Men’s hoops are the two revenue sports, they gotta fill that arena and get fans excited.
Oates would be a Gary Williams type coup. Would love to see it. Williams was pretty hot @ BC when TOSU hired him.
Other than having the last name Diebler, what do people see in him? As the son shouldn’t pay the sins of the father, the son shouldn’t be able to ride the coattails of the father (or brother).
Well, we don't know how Diebler would be as a head coach.
But he has been the lead recruiter on almost all of our 2022 and 2023 recruits, which means he is basically responsible for our best recruiting classes since the Russell/Tate/KBD class, and he did it largely with out of state kids. If you think that's no big deal, especially in the current era where basketball first schools can throw all kinds of NIL at their targets, then you're delusional.
The other aspect of that is that these players might actually buy in with Diebler as HC. Based on comments that Holtmann has made about what he's looking for and from what we saw and heard with the All Access Minny game, I think some of the guys are tuning him out a bit. That's a recipe for disaster because at that point it doesn't matter how well you can coach on the board, if you can't get the players motivated and executing, it's worthless.
Diebler would by no means be some home run hire from the get. It'd be a gamble that you hope pans out because you know he can recruit and essentially you are trying to lock in that recruiting ability at OSU. It would give you some program continuity and hopefully maintain the current classes, which might avoid a big rebuild (that could end up leading nowhere). And based on our offensive efficiency up until our guys stopped executing and sharing the ball well, I think Diebler could potentially be a fine offensive coach. Like I said, getting a defensive guru on board as an assistant would be pretty crucial, as Diebler ran our defense last season and it was not good, to say the least.
Couldn't agree with you more. One thing many people forget is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jake's dad, is or was a basketball coach. While it doesn't mean much, kids that have parents that have been coaches, do inherit some of those attributes whether it be skills on the court or coaching skills and abilities. Not saying Jake has those skills but maybe he has and in his current role cannot execute those skills. I would not be against the hire.
Secondly, I do not think Holtman is a terrible coach, but I feel he overthinks which leads to poor decisions on player rotations and play calling. You can see it in the players body language on the court. This team plays best when they are moving and passing. Look at past games where they beat teams like Duke and other high-profile teams. When they share the ball and move, they play like the best team in the country. It's when they slow down and play isolation is when they struggle on offense. They need to put the players in positions where they are most effective. For example, Sueing's mid-range game and interior scoring is where he is effective. His ass should not be shooting three's. Defense, their defensive scheme sucks. Undersized in the middle, defensive rotations are slow, especially late in the game. However, the officiating in B1G games sucks. Ohio State has more calls go against them than most and it does impact the outcome of the games. The one exception is the Rutger's game at home. The refs blew that call badly.
Holtman needs to create an identity for the team. The question is, "Who are we?" and create that identity moving forward. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
Serious question but with the financial talk, at what point does fielding 36 varsity sports garner more pride than being a top 10 men’s basketball school. I wish we’d cut a few programs and make the rest better as a result.
Sort of like when a retail chain trims some fat and closes underperforming stores so the others thrive. This is a good point. There comes a point in time when bigger isn’t always better. The law of diminishing returns becomes a “thing”.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Yeah no …….OSU is fine …. And highly ranked in almost every sport they field & making revenue off them … if anything OSU can easily cut the Baseball program , thats just a gigantic waste of money
A polite "no thank you" on Sean Miller. Besides the dirty past and how he basically stabbed Thad in the back with the whole Kobi Simmons fiasco, he had an unreal talent level at Arizona when he was coach there, arguably the best talent level in the whole country... and never got past the Elite 8. His last 6 years he never made it past the Round of 64, unless you count the vacated S16. His last three years he didn't even make the Dance. He won the Pac-12 a fair amount but the Pac-12 was also pretty garbage most of those years with very few Tourney bids and the only other consistent program contender being Oregon. Miller got a hard reset and seems reinvigorated at Xavier. I think that program and that conference are a good fit for him. I am not completely opposed to him being the coach of OSU at some point in the future, but he'd be down a ways on my list of phone calls right now.
Nate Oats should be the top target if OSU is trying to hire a new coach any time soon. But there are multiple programs around the country who are looking at Oats the same way and who are probably far closer to making a coaching change/hire (see Louisville or Texas, for instance), to say nothing of the amount of money that might be required to make that hire if it becomes a bidding war between Alabama and whoever the other suitors are.
Pat Kelsey, I mean... he falls in the gamble category. He won the Big South 4 times in 9 years at Winthrop. Good for him but the Big South is a terrible conference. His first season at College of Charleston they were 17-15 and 8-10 in the Colonial. This season they only have 1 loss, but that loss is by almost 40 points to UNC. They haven't really beat anyone good unless you count squeaking out a 2-point win over Virginia Tech, who is currently 11-6 and 1-5 in the ACC. They also squeaked out wins vs. the likes of Stetson, Towson, Presbyterian, and UNCW. I give them credit for actually winning close games, something Ohio State seems determined NOT to do these days, but this was not a murderer's row of tough competition that CoC played through to get to their record. With candidates like Kelsey the argument always becomes "But imagine what he could do with better talent!" Well, we have no clue how well Kelsey would recruit at this level. This is where I'd almost be more inclined to promote Diebler vs. hiring a guy like Kelsey, despite Diebler's lack of HC experience... because we do know how Diebler can recruit and I think it is precisely at the level that Ohio State needs.
People think Kelsey could be the next Nate Oats, I guess, but you have to remember that in Oats' four years at Buffalo, it was pretty much a straight arc upwards. Made the Dance his first season, missed it the second season but had a better conference record, and then Buffalo performed at an exceptionally high level his last two seasons there, finishing 27-9 (15-3) and 32-4 (16-2) and making the R32 two times in a row. And the thing that gives people more optimism about the longevity and sustainability of Oats' success (because, let's face it, last season was a disappointing one for the Crimson Tide) is the level he is recruiting at. Maybe Kelsey can recruit to that level but he hasn't yet accomplished anything close to what Oats did his last two years at Buffalo, so you would be gambling quite a bit on a guy who hasn't proven half as much as Holtmann had before he came here.
Now, if Kelsey is able to finish this season strong and finish next season even better, and maybe win a game or two in the Dance, yeah, you could be looking at the next hot mid-major coach commodity. I think you do have to proceed with a little caution, though. Matt McMahon was about as appealing a mid-major candidate as you could ask for and LSU is currently 1-4 in the SEC. Doesn't mean McMahon won't work out, he could work out great for LSU, but it's a dicey game trying to project mid-major success onto a program that has to recruit and perform at such a consistently high level to make waves in a power conference, especially one with as much grueling depth as the B1G.
So Kelsey hasn't accomplished anything of note. Solid coach at a low mid, 17-15 last year at CoC. Pretty much the same as hiring Holtmann.
Oats not much of a track record either. Did a good job in fairly short stint at Buffalo (was assistant under Hurley who left for ASU) and did win a couple of tourney games. I'm guessing the main reason he's on the list is because he's having a good year this year, not that he's necessarily accomplished much in his career. Biggest obstacle with him is large buyout that OSU would be on the hook for and the reason AZ didn't pursue him as hard as some others to replace Miller.
In 17 years, Miller has never been to a FF and missed the NCAA tourney 6 times (8 if you include the vacated seasons for rules violations). Other than recruiting (through nefarious actions) how is he better than Holtmann?
I would add that with Holtmann vs. Kelsey at least OSU had the benefit of seeing how Holtmann did at Butler in the Big East (and he did pretty well). Kelsey would be a far bigger unknown.
I agree with you in principle on Oats in terms of the track record but I think with me I get it with him because he's turned out to be an excellent recruiter and his players seem to buy in with him. So it feels like the ceiling of whatever program has him should tend to be on the higher side.
Biggest difference between Kelsey and Holtmann is that Kelsey has actually won something. Holtmann has never even won a conference title. He has a much, much better track record than Holtmann at the same level. Also, Charleston didn't lose by 40 to UNC. It was 16 in a game they were leading at half.
Holtmann only spent three years in the Big South. Kelsey didn't win anything in his first three years in the Big South. They actually coached against each other in the same league for a year with Holtmann going 11-5 and Kelsey going 6-10.
You're right, I completely misread the final score on that game with UNC, it was a 16 point deficit at the end.
Kelsey does not have a "much, much" better track record than Holtmann at the same level. In 9 years as a HC at Winthrop, Kelsey had two appearances in the Dance and zero wins in the Dance. His first 3 years at Winthrop they finished 5th, tied for 2nd, and tied for 3rd in the conference. Holtmann was only at Gardner Webb for 3 years and dramatically improved their standing in the Big South by his final season, where they tied for 2nd. I don't think you can really compare the two coaches based on their Big South tenures other than that in their third years they had their programs at similar levels. If Holtmann had stayed at Gardner Webb, he might easily have ended up dominating the Big South, who knows.
Kelsey has nothing on his resume comparable to Holtmann's time at Butler. That doesn't mean he won't have that at some point, he just doesn't have it right now. I would prefer to see a larger sample size of success from Kelsey, including some Tournament success. Or see him at a smaller power conference school and see how he handles the step up in competition. Because right now we know almost nothing about how his recruiting and coaching would fare at this level. With Nate Oats at least he had those Tournament wins and some other good program wins during his time at Buffalo (like @Syracuse and @WVU); Bama rolled the dice on him, for sure, but there were some solid indicators that he could work out for them. Kelsey doesn't have as many of those types of indicators in his favor yet.
Would Alabama just let Nate Oats walk away? I’d like to see him in Columbus too. But Alabama is similar in that they are a “football” school but they are in much better shape going forward. Unless OSU throws a ton at him and he brings his players?
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I don't want to be that guy, but after what happened over the weekend with one of his players, he may be looking for way to get out of town. It's a horrible situation that Coach Oats may want to distance himself from at the end of the season.
You need to be humble or you will get humbled. - Jocko Willink
Its my understanding his buyout is over $12M. Oats certainly wouldn't pay it, so it would be on the school trying to hire him away that would have to pony up.
Go for an NBA guy. If you want a good college basketball program run an NBA offense and sell yourself on developing players for the pro level whether it be Europe or NBA.
This is kind of what Georgetown tried to do with Ewing. That's failing pretty miserably.
It's also what IU has tried to do with Mike Woodson. TBD on that one. The Hoosier fans aren't overjoyed with him at the moment because they feel he is trying to coach too much like a NBA coach and not coaching to what his roster's actual abilities are. But it's far from a disaster and could improve.
Then there's scUM and Juwan Howard. To me, Howard is mostly a figurehead there who has recruiting pull. I do think he's involved with the coaching and makes a lot of the rotation decisions (questionable decisions, at that) but I think Martelli handles a lot of the actual coaching of those teams when it comes to the game-planning and so on.
I don't really see a bargain bin NBA guy who I think "Oh yeah, great fit for Ohio State." Billy Donovan would be awesome because he has high level college HC experience in addition to his time in the NBA. But the college game has changed since Donovan was in it and who knows if he is really that interested in coming back to it (or staying in it even if he did come back). Plus his base salary with the Bulls is $6 million a year.
There's no sure-fire way to hire yourself a big-time winner in college basketball. Even guys who were previously quite successful can struggle in new situations (see Hoiberg at Nebraska). There are so many extenuating factors and so much parity in the sport, success really is a very fickle thing. I think you probably couldn't go too wrong with hiring a currently proven college basketball coach who also recruits at a high level, like Nate Oats. Those are the level of guys that basketball powerhouses snatch up, though, as soon as they need a guy. So if we do move on from Holtmann, I just hope we are either very bold (financially) or very shrewd about it.
I'm not saying that you go hire Jawan Howard or Patrick Ewing. There are coaches that were in the NBA now that are purely Basketball junkies who understand the changes in the game. Every team basically runs the NBA offenses because they work. They get efficient shots for your best shot makers. They know how to build lineups for this also. This is why a Luka Doncic or any European can walk into the NBA and seem like a veteran, Europe basically helped form today's offenses.
I know multiple players in the NBA, and their biggest gripe with the college game is that their college coaches didn't do much to prepare them for the NBA. Guys who played pro overseas and learned pro concepts were much more prepared. After seeing this Ohio State team this year I see a coach who has no clue how to adapt to his talent. Bryce Sensenbaugh may be the most talented scorer I've seen during his tenure. You run your sets and offense through him, not Justice Sueing or some of the other program guys they currently have.
Find a coach who understands modern pro offensive and defensive concepts, and build around that. Find assistants that can recruit. The college game is like watching the Hosiers compared to actual basketball.
According to Jerry Palm's bracketology that was updated this morning, Ohio State is officially out...not even one of the first four teams out. Yes lots can change, but midpoint year 6 you're a bubble team with absolutely no good will to fall back on.
Honestly...at this point, hire anybody. Minnesota's coach would be an upgrade!
I really hate this "hire anybody" rhetoric and I hope you're being facetious.
I am not happy with the current regime at this point but the reality is that there are far, far more coaches out there with worse resumes than Holtmann than there are coaches with better ones.
If you think it can't get worse, watch more basketball. Look at Louisville. Look at Georgetown. Look at Cal. Thing is, I know you know it can get worse, Shook, so I am not sure why you feel the need to make statements this extreme.
The intent of replacing Holtmann can't be "let's just make a change for the sake of making a change." It needs to be, "let's improve the program and its future." Otherwise, we very easily could go from a middle tier B1G/R32-type program to a bottom of the B1G/NIT-type program. Adding UCLA and USC to the conference isn't going to make things any easier, so if we fire Holtmann, I sure do hope OSU takes the task of replacing him seriously.
I hate giving the job to someone that’s never Head Coached, worked out terribly with Randy Ayers. It will never happen but canning CH this weekend and promoting Diebler to right the year as an “interim “. Would be great, give him a shot without a long term contract.
I don't think it will happen this season but I do agree with the idea that it would be good to see Diebler in an interim role and see how he does.
Gene needs to have a secret sit-down with Diebler and be like, "Hey, stick around for at least one more season. If things aren't going well next season, you will get your chance to audition for the head job."
At the same time, are you putting Diebler in a no-win situation with something like that? I guess it would depend on what kind of expectations you were having in order for him to get the job.
I just don’t understand what’s keeping him afloat as it is. Why did someone who won zero Big Ten titles, zero BTT championships, and with no March success get a contract extension? He hasn’t even finishes top 4 in the Big Ten since year 1.
Either Gene has very low expectations for this program, Gene can’t swallow his pride, or both.
What about Scoonie Penn? Ohio State legend...currently coaching in the NBA....currently coaching one of the most exciting players in the NBA...Would it be a gamble? It sure would be. But it would be an exciting hire that probably wouldn't break the bank...and either it works out or it doesn't work out and it gives the program more time to wait for that home run hire candidate to truly be available. Because I don't think a current HOME RUN hire who would seriously consider coming here exists right now. Scoonie would be my pick. Someone mentioned Evan Turner above...ET is my favorite OSU athlete of all time but I would feel better with Scoonie.
I think it's a lot more likely Holtmann opts for a change of scenery after this season than Gene firing him. This season is 95% heading for disaster, but I don't think Gene would consider firing him until April 2024 at the earliest. I don't hate Chris Holtmann one bit and obviously the dude has forgotten more about basketball than I ever will know...but the doctors are about to quit administering CPR and are about to call the time of death on this era...as Herbie Husker peers through the window with a sinister look in his face.
You don't know what you don't know but I would not be optimistic about this program's future if OSU hired some of the names I see people throwing out there.
Things aren't peachy keen at the moment but there is a lot of room for them to get worse. I'd prefer that OSU be very intentional about trying to upgrade the program vs. making a change just for the sake of making a change.
Naming former players with a coaching background, to be fair. Scoonie makes a lot of sense. He was director of player personnel at OSU and is now an assistant coach for the Grizzlies, in his third year. He might not be the BEST option, but he certainly is an option. And one that some fans would get excited about on name alone
I've been a long time defender of Holtman, but have finally realized it is time to move on. Love the previous poster's suggestion of Chris Jent, I think he could turn this program around.
I don't expect OSU to buyout Holtman and then pony up even more money to go get someone making over 3 mil (roughly the starting point for a top 25 salaried coach). That's why if Holtman is let go I think they go the Pat Kelsey type route (makes 550k plus bonuses). They can double his salary and he can come and be a long term solution. If it doesn't work out his buyout wouldn't be a hinderance to try getting another coach.
To the people who say Kelsey and Gates have not accomplished enough to get the job over Holtmann, I say so what if we fire Holtmann and Kelsey turns out to be worse? Am I really going to miss being dead average and a first round exit in the tournament? This program under Holtmann is just flat out not enjoyable. They blow leads, they never win a big game in March, they lose to bad teams like dead-last Minnesota. Honestly, failing to make the tournament altogether and consistent bad first week exits are the same to me.
I would rather take a chance and be better with a new coach and maybe risk failing then keeping the mediocre status quo.
That's your prerogative. For me, I hate not making the Dance. Absolutely hate it. That to me is the one concrete goal that a Buckeye coach should meet more often than not. That's why I have given Holtmann more leeway than some because he makes the Dance every season, something a lot of coaches fail to do. That said, we might miss the Dance this season and the pattern of coming up short of achieving anything noteworthy and losing close games has become too frustrating.
But I'd rather have a coach that gets us to the Dance and keeps the program competitive than someone who totally sinks the program. I'd much rather be where OSU has been with Holtmann than where Indiana was with Archie Miller or Louisville was with Chris Mack and now Kenny Payne, or where Georgetown is with Patrick Ewing, or where Minnesota was with Lil Pitino, and so on and so forth.
So while I don't necessarily think that we should give Holtmann a long leash here and do think we should expect better, it absolutely matters to me that if we're replacing him we're trying to do so with a guy who can help this program make progress. It matters. Treating this like "anyone would be better" is asinine and ignorant. Some coaches would be better, and OSU needs to hire one of them or be very smart about who COULD be better if given the chance.
Well, we can cross Bill Self off the list. Just called TO's at the end of regulation and overtime and drew up plays for his team to turn the ball over. didn't even get a shot off. Gotta be an awful coach if you design those plays.
To be clear, you missed the salient point (I'll take responsibility since it was dressed in sarcasm). sometimes coaches set up good plays and players fail to execute. Sometimes calling a TO to set up a play allows the defense to regroup and prepare.
My point is Holtmann consistently fails to set up a play that generates a good look. Whether it was Duane Washington Jr three years ago or Brice today, he is relaying on an iso. There are no back door screens or guys coming off screens on the wing. It’s literally clear out and resort to street ball 1:1. Even under the basket against UNC we were forced to lob it into the corner to Zed. The games we have managed to win in these situations (few and far between) have required someone making a well-contested shot.
Maybe Holtmann is an X and O’s wiz late game and his team just isn’t listening… but if that were the case, that would mean he’s had 5 years of players ignoring him.
yeah, it was such a terrible coaching job choosing to run plays for your best scorer and getting your team ranked #4 in the nation. Just awful.
I don't know that he is a wiz. I know he's drawn up plenty of plays that ended up in good looks and I know enough about basketball to understand that the play against Purdue was poor execution and that a lot of coaches will use isolation with their best player to get the last shot with the game tied. Arguing otherwise simply shows rigid bias.
Texas A&M was briefly top 4 in football this year. Making a quick stop in the top 5 doesn't make it a top 5 season. We finished 5th in the conference that year and lost 6 of our last 9 games. Was it an entertaining year? Absolutely. Was it an accomplished year...unfortunately no as all measurable goals were left on the table (Big Ten title, BTT championship, deep tournament run, sweep TTUN).
A&M was #4 before any games were played. We were #4 on 2/22, with 2 and 1/2 weeks left in the season, then Young got hurt and we didn't have enough depth to make up for it.
Some good discussion here, some bad discussion, but mostly good discussion lol
Holtmann isn't getting fired unless this season goes completely off the rails, and even then his buyout is so big it probably wouldn't happen until 2024....the extension Gene gave him might go down as the dumbest thing any of my sports teams have done in history (not the WORST but the dumbest)
We need to focus our energy on him leaving for another job. You're already seeing national guys float his name out there for the Notre Dame job. If Notre Dame hired him away, I already told my co-workers I will bring in donuts to celebrate. I personally would not be surprised if Holtmann was looking to get outta Columbus. The dude isn't exactly great at handling criticism and hooo boy it's been brutal out there on social media the last 2 days. The Jeff Goodmann tweet "bE caReFul WhaT yOu WiSh For" was an absolute farce lol
I think it was an article on CBS sports or something that said Holtmann's buyout is 2.5M. They named 6 candidates who ND should look at for the job and he was #1. They said he's a top 15 coach, that makes top 30 money, so he would make a lot of sense.
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Nate oats should be call #1. Not sure if we can get him from Bama but he should be given a blank check
I bet he is at Texas next year.
You better get use to Holtman, He’s not going anywhere …..
I hope not, it's so bad. He's a bad coach
Successful people do what they have to, whether they feel like it or not
Holtman has already secured an extension, so we as tOSU fan's are stuck with him for atleast another year if not 2 year's.
GO BUCKS
If we're waiting 2 years, how about LeBron?
LeBron will be part of an NBA ownership group when he's ultimately done playing.
GO BUCKS
LeBron as a college coach would be similar to Patrick Ewing… he might get some amazing talent, but it would be ugly
I never understand why people want super star ex players with zero coaching creds to coach us. Maybe if they do the Deion Sanders thing and start at the bottom that's fine, but plucking Chris Spielman from the broadcasting booth (this was a popular wish) and giving hm the clipboard was just crazy thinking. Let's see LBJ coach a summer league, then be an end of the bench coach at Ohio Northern or IUPU or someplace like that.
uhhh....because people are ignorant. But yet, they want you to believe they know what the fk they are talking about while blasting xxxx head coach
Sometimes good guys do not finish first (ever).
"Tough times don't last, tough people do" - Gregory Peck
His extension has nothing to do if he stays or goes. If the right people with money want him gone he is gone. If the people with money don't care then he stays.
WishUwereMe
The passion for bball is not the same at osu
the right people with money would have heads rolling if day was 6-4 on the season
but bballl - the leash is looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong
That is inanely false lol , osu puts a TON of money & resources into basketball, Holtmann has just got people accustomed to mediocrity
damn thought that money would go to NILs
I know half a dozen or so guys on 11W who better be submitting their resumes with their vast knowledge of the game.
If any one of them can draw a motion offense it would be an improvement over our current offensive “sets”
Agree completely on this. Ever since his arrival I cannot tell that we run an offense whatsoever.
vacuuming sucks
Nate Oats would be my top-tier number one dude but he's gonna have his pick of the litter.
Sean Miller would be my #2, I don't care about the sketchy past. (But I do like the Missouri coach as a 3rd option)
O-H.
Being a College of Charleston grad and currently living in Charleston, leave Pat alone. He’s done a helluva job bringing in D II players, transfers and recruiting at a high level. Excitement and enthusiasm is back like it was when Coach Kresse and Cremins were here. He’s in the stands talking to students and fans after games and has the program rolling. 18 straight W’s. Not sure how long he will be here but def going to enjoy it , he has little pressure, lives in paradise and doesn’t play second fiddle to footballl
I've seen some people on twitter even mention calling Chris Mack. They've said, well he's been to more Sweet 16's than Holtmann has. He's an Ohio native and he can do better with the same talent Holtmann's bringing in. Someone responded saying, no I don't want to replace Chris with a Chris haha. Kind of funny.
MrBuck24
That’s an improvement …just looking at Holtmann’s clueless ass run around clapping his hands like Brady Hole saying let’s go and push it the hole game makes me sick!!
NWObuckeye
Yep! People in the crowd can do that, and they pay to be there!
I sure hope the Holtmann error is over by years end , why we settled for someone of his caliber with a mediocre resume is a modern f-cking mystery , has never won shit at any level, but what a great idea to dump millions to a clown in over his head from day one in a dog eat dog BIG….major head scratcher there!!
NWObuckeye
@NWOBuckeye It all depends on what the OSU athletic department and the boosters are willing to spend on a top tier coach. Holtmann makes anywhere from 3.5 million to 4 million a year and what his current buyout is. An elite top tier basketball coach is going to draw anywhere from 7 to 10 million a year when I mean elite top tier I am talking an Izzo, Self, Wright. They aren't going to get these guys but they need to make sure their buyouts are pretty reasonable. You might try to convince Jay Wright and Chris Beard you could get at a reasonable rate. OSU has enough shrinks at that school he could get the appropriate counseling 7 days a week for his alcoholoism and anger issues. They could offer Sean Miller, everyone is buying players in this new NIL era so it's not a big deal now.
BuckeyeYankee
I don't follow hoops like I use to but this is a very new team. They may jell around tournament time and we can be eating our words in March. They have lost some they shouldn't of late but maybe like I said new team it could come around. I feel also no matter who we get recruiting is hard here not like years ago and can't keep gtreat home talent home.
Denny
Hey it is not 1960 anymore and we are not a Basketball powerhouse....we are a football school so be happy with every so often we get a nice run in March Madness.....
Kauai Buckeye
We were a football school in 1960 also. Having winners in both football and basketball, while rare, is not impossible.
Everyone then me.
Florida did it...Won Basketball Title and Football Title in the same year...no excuse for Ohio State not to be able to do that.
Need to can this clown now....Go after Billy Donovan...he belongs in college not the NBA anyway.
Let's Go Bucks
I would love Donovan. Don't know what his interest is in returning to college ball. OSU would probably need to pay more than what he makes with the Bulls ($6 million a year base salary). Probably not gonna happen.
the empire never ended
Yeah, I don't think you to remind Ohio State fans that Florida won Basketball and Football National Championships in the same year since both were against the Buckeyes....
Florida did it with an exceptional recruiting class that had guys who were mostly from pretty well to do families that decided to run it back for another year.
The lady buckeyes are making a run at it.
And everyone (that cared about women's basketball) wanted McGuff run out of town a few years ago.
I have never liked that mentality and ever since fucking Florida won natties in both sports in the same year at our expense I hate it with a passion.
We are not even meeting this low standard you articulated (which should not be the standard)
Love that attitude , but just a few years back weren’t we challenging in both? Oh and by the way “ every so often a nice run in March Madness” never happens with Holtmann
NWObuckeye
If the 60s didn’t exist this program would still have 7 of its 11 Final Fours and 16 of our 22 conference titles.
Ohio State is the 12th best basketball program. You don’t achieve that exclusively by one good decade.
Holtmann’s mediocrity has people forgetting that OSU ran the B1G in CBB for a LOOOOOONG time until the down years of Matta from his botched surgery
Well Matta is t walking thru that door anytime soon. Unfortunately the fans and the players are stuck with Holtmann thanks to a dumb decision by Gene Smith
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I’m gonna argue for the sake of arguing. You’ve got to be like 24 years old. Go and count how many final 4s and sweet 16s we have. Matta was an aberration, not the norm. I get that Matta makes it possible for us to be upper echelon big ten, but long history says not probable to repeat those kind of results.
Ohio State led the conference in Big Ten titles with 22 when Holtmann took over. You think we got 5 in the early 60s and Matta magically won 17 straight? It takes decades of multiple titles to get to 22 total.
OSU still leads the conference in Final Fours with 11. Matta had 2. We had 3 in the early 60s. That means we had 6 other damn good seasons somewhere along the line! And that’s not even mentioning years like 1991, 1992, 2010, 2011, 2013 when we were so damn good and failed to make the FF.
Ran the B1G? Seems that was MSU, not us. And sometimes illinois, Matt Sylvester’s clutch shot notwithstanding. We contended to be sure, but we ain’t run shit since Fred Taylor.
tbdfitl
Ohio State absolutely ran the Big Ten 2006-2013.
5 Big Ten titles. A missed Michigan layup vs IU away from a 6th in 2013.
4 BTT championships. Runner up in 06, 09, 12 as well.
2 Final Fours - 2007 and 2012
2 AP #1 finishes - 2007 and 2011
Only MSU could even hold a candle to us during that time as a whole.
Yes …. They ran the B1G, literally was a period of time when OSU was running MSU out the gym with fair ease…… hell there was a period of time when osu never lost double digit games in a seaon … are you young? because up until matta’s last couple of years … OSU led the B1G in virtually EVERY category except National Championships , there was a time when you could literally bet OSU to win the B1G & B1G tournament and people would say …. Easy bet
I don’t need them to win MM every year but a 20 year B1G drought is ridiculous.
I’ll take a grad assistant atp… literally anyone but Holtmann. At least Jeff Saturday was funny
“I just roke up” - Daniel Larson
I'd give this guy a call.
Chris Collins (basketball) - Wikipedia
you serious Clark?
Chris Collins always has teams that are better than the sum of their parts. Played at Duke, coached at Duke under Krzyzewski before taking the job at Northwestern. His teams have shown the ability to execute and run sets efficiently, even though he doesn't have the talent that other schools have. He's as a good a coach as there is in the Big 10 and has done a great job at Northwestern. No reason not to consider him.
We destroyed Northwestern at Northwestern this year.
If we start with his Butler tenure, Holtmann has accomplished significantly more than Collins as a HC every season up until this point. The ONE single year in nine years that Collins finished better than 9th in the B1G was when he tied for 5th in 2016-2017. That was also the only time Collins has made the Dance. Northwestern went to the R32. Chris Holtmann, at Butler, went to the S16 that year.
Holtmann did not have a better talent level at Butler than Collins has had at Northwestern. But Holt never missed the Dance at Butler and won 4 Tourney games in 3 years. That's 3 more than Collins has won in 9 years as a HC.
Do we even need to compare the B1G results?
I really don't understand this "hire Chris Collins" line of thought, at all. You think Collins would get insane talent to come to OSU or something?
the empire never ended
I have no way of determining the validity of this statement. I do know that Northwestern has been the perennial doormat in the Big 10 for decades, however since Collins arrived at Northwestern he has upped their level of play, they execute their offense and they are a tough out regardless of who they play, despite not having much in the way of talent, and their lesser talent level is due to better academics. Strictly from a talent standpoint, they start with one massive strike against them because of academics, so Northwestern starts with a smaller potential talent pool than do other programs, both within the Big 10 and elsewhere.
However, I don't think that was really your point. I think your main point of contention is incapsulated in this sentence:
I have no way of determining this either. Outside of a Calipari, I don't know who would get "insane talent" to come to Ohio State. If that's your goal, then give me your list of (realistic) candidates that will demonstrably provide the "insane talent."
Collins hasn't achieved much of anything in 9 years at a power conference program, that's the main gist. He only once has had his team in the top half of the B1G, he has only made the Dance once, etc.
My question about talent is me trying to understand why you would want to hire Collins, that's it. Because there is virtually nothing on his current resume that should encourage OSU to hire him. You're right that the academics situation at Northwestern is a bit more limiting. That said, the school is in a good basketball state, is Chicago-adjacent, and it is a power conference program. Collins has had numerous T150 guys and a decent number of 4-star guys and only 1 year out of 9 did he do anything half-decent with them.
So I'm assuming you think Collins would get exceptional talent at OSU and that he would coach them well enough to far exceed anything he has done to date. For me, personally, I'd rather promote Diebler than hire Collins because Diebler has shown at what level he can recruit to OSU and I think it is the optimal level that OSU needs.
the empire never ended
I answered that question already by saying I don't know. I'm sure Calipari can provide that "insane talent" that you're requiring. Outside of Calipari, I can think of a couple of names that might bring "insane talent," but those guys already have a good gig elsewhere and so, they are not coming here.
You're the one arguing against Collins because in your opinion he can't get the "insane talent" that you require, so I asked you for a list of candidates that can provide the "insane talent" and the only name you provide is the name of one of our assistant coaches?
You went from "insane talent" to "optimal OSU level talent."
If your answer is Jake Diebler, as the "optimal level" recruiter, than you're hiring a guy that has no head coaching experience. None. Not bashing Diebler, but I thought the idea was to get better results on the floor with the talent that we have on hand; talent that he has recruited. If Diebler was the answer, wouldn't we be seeing some of the results on the floor by now? Where's the improvement on the floor that would leave me without a doubt that Diebler was the right man for the job?
I'm trying to figure out why you want to hire a coach who is worse than the one we have and who has already shown he can't do anything in the B1G. At any rate, you can't seem to explain why, so I'm gonna stop trying to figure it out.
Diebler is not the ideal hire in my mind, but at least he has shown he can recruit T50 talent, which is more than Collins has done. Guys like Pat Kelsey, Dennis Gates, and Jerome Tang are intriguing to me because at least there is potential there. With Collins we have already seen what he can do in the B1G and it's not much. In fact, it's considerably worse than Holtmann. And there is no debating that. You want to bring talent pool into the equation, what about all the injury issues Holtmann has had to deal with? If we're gonna let the results do the talking, that needs to apply to any potential candidates, too. And Collins' results are bad. Period.
the empire never ended
I explained it fully in my reply to Wigmon, which I won't duplicate here. He's exceeded expectations at Northwestern. He's a better coach than his record indicates, a solid X's and O's guy, and has earned the respect of every coach and program in the league.
Dennis Gates was just hired by Missouri last year. Gates' annual salary starts at $2.5 million in 2022-23 and will increase every year up to $3 million in 2027-28. He's not coming here.
Jerome Tang was just hired by Kansas State last year. Tang agreed to a six-year deal worth $14.1 million with the Wildcats. He's not coming here.
Pat Kelsey coached 9 years at Winthrop and he's in his 2nd season with College of Charleston. Not exactly name-brand power 5 schools. If he's your splash hire, so be it. But I'll grant you this, of the 3 that you named, he might be the only one to take the position. From an X's and O's standpoint, I have no idea what his teams run, so I don't know if he's any better than we have now.
Also, according to Wikipedia: "In 2017, Kelsey was hired as the head coach at Massachusetts, but returned to Winthrop two days after accepting the position, citing personal reasons. Kelsey informed UMass Athletic Director Ryan Bamford of his decision 25 minutes before the scheduled press conference to formally introduce Kelsey to the press and university community." Walking out on that position, in that manner, 25 minutes before the press conference, can't have done Kelsey any favors and it certainly doesn't look good on his resume.
Edit: I also agree with what GoNutz27 wrote below, asking Clark Kellogg and Jimmy Jackson to help with the search. Their input might be helpful.
Yeah, listen, I didn't mean to get so involved in debating this. You think Collins would be a good hire, I don't. It is what it is. Agree to disagree!
the empire never ended
And as for the other guys, I am not necessarily gung-ho about any of them, they are just names that people are throwing out there that I agree at least have potential to do well here if we hired them. I appreciate you bringing up their contract details because I don't know if people realize, yes, that is the kind of money that OSU would need to match and exceed just to get a HC who has done anything at this level so far, not to mention buy outs (and Gates and Tang are just in their first year head coaching at power conference schools). Kelsey hasn't done much of anything yet in terms of impressive wins or recruiting so while he has won a lot of games with CoC this season and would be a bargain deal, it'd be a total gamble. I don't know enough about him to comment on possible personality issues.
With Diebler I think my thing is locking in his recruiting ability could be important. OSU is not going to be able to reload on one and dones constantly so T75-T40 recruits is the sweet spot for this program and Diebler was able to get 7 guys like that in 2 classes, all but one of them from out of state. That's not nothing. And I don't know if scheme has been as big an issue with this team as motivation and execution. If the HC has a good relationship with his guys and they follow him, it can pay dividends. So that's my thought process there.
Again, Diebler would be somewhat of a gamble, too, since he has no HC experience other than when Holtmann was out. And if I had my druthers we would hire someone like Billy Donovan or Nate Oats, but then we're talking pretty unrealistically.
the empire never ended
I realize expectations at NW aren't great at NW, but in 9 seasons he has only qualified 1 time for any post season tourney (NCAA, NIT, CIB, etc). Let me repeat, in 9 seasons he has only had 1 without a losing record. Add that he is worse than his predecessor (Carmody) at NW who actually built the program into something somewhat respectable.
I don't think he's a bad coach and seems like a good guy, but no way we'd get rid of Holtmann for Collins.
Anyone with a personality and at least some basketball IQ would be an upgrade. Need Clark Kellogg and Jimmy Jackson to help with the coaching search. They’re around enough coaches to know who would be a good hire for the Buckeye program.
I would prefer Holtman hire an X and Os guy on the bench Pay whatever it takes to get a guy that can implement an offense and draw up plays. It’s not his skill and he doesn’t need to do it so go hire someone. He’s going to have some talent to work with
Why not just hire that guy to be the head coach?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Don’t believe he’s going anywhere anytime soon and he has stepped up recruiting significantly.
Comment removed for violating the site's commenting policy.
NWObuckeye
Mods - Can we please remove this comment? That's a bit much dude. That's something that should NEVER be joked about.
Negativity is a choice I seldom make. Everything has a positive spin. Sometimes you simply have to look a little harder
Comment removed for violating the site's commenting policy.
NWObuckeye
I am thick skinned as an ox. I have been on here for almost 5 years and have never asked for a comment to be removed or did something you would consider "thin skinned" or ever mentioned being offended. I pride myself on being relentlessly positive and respectful. I feel child molestation is a reasonable place to draw the fucking line. Saying Holtmann looks like a child molester was a joke is unfathomable to me. Saying the world is full of snowflakes doesn't give you the right to throw around "Cho mo" comments.
Negativity is a choice I seldom make. Everything has a positive spin. Sometimes you simply have to look a little harder
Comment removed for violating the site's commenting policy.
NWObuckeye
Lol this is a joke right? All time stupid comment right here.
Ooo we've got the internet tough guy in nwobuckeye over here everyone wqtch ouch he's smoked many ppl before. Also I find it funny you think you have the right to throw allegations like that around and are calling other ppl a little bitch. I'm glad you love saying false things and trying to ruin ppls reputations with bullshit allegations. Goodjob man your a worthless piece of shit and shown it with these comments. I hope you don't have kids cause I'd Hate for them to be raised by you. Also as a victim of being molested as a child by my grandpa you can go fuck yourself with throwing around a accusation like that.
LMAO
Why not hire …. Idk…. An X & O HC? May be a better idea, but idk
Holtmann will be here next year. Gene Smith made this worse by giving him a 3 year extension so this guy has five years left on his contract. Gene Smith needs to retire and become the next Big Ten Commissioner at least to get things back in Ohio State's favor from a conference standpoint.
BuckeyeYankee
I do think you’re right about Smith. He lost the fastball and he’s made some head scratching decisions. Hell, going back 12 years when OSU should have been playing for a national championship. That was unforgivable
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Wait, you sure can’t say coach H is living off his ability to coach defense. Terrible offense I agree and it’s almost just playground on offense but on defense they are awful. Rebounding…. Wow we could keep going. Let me remove okparo. He can play great defense but nobody else can guard.
Get Jay Wright out of retirement
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
In his first 14 seasons at Villanova, he had 2 sub .500 seasons, missed the tourney 4 years and only made 1 FF.
I’m actually impressed the people at Nova stuck with Jay for that long. And it paid off in a big way. I don’t think Holtmann has that kind of slack at OSU. I could see this year and next possibly
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Probably cause he took a bunch of low ranked recruits to the elite 8 and sweet 16 …. In his first 5 years & despite rebuilding…. Made 4 sweet 16s , 2 elite 8s & a final four within first 10 years
Will probably never see that kind of run again in college ball. If you think Holtmann is capable of that, I got some ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Wright had the same number of top 100 RSCI players Holtmann did their first years at their schools. Wrights 2nd and 3rd years he had 8 top 100 RSCI players and they didn't make the NCAA tournament. There is no doubt Wright recruited better early on than Holtmann, but be honest, if Holtmann had missed the NCAA tourney each of his first three years with the talent Wright had, the 11W gurus would have all been calling for his job. No doubt Wrights 4-6th year were better than Holts, but his first three were clearly worse.
Holtmann is just now recruiting well enough to compete nationally, but the first class are just frosh. Years 1-3 exceeded everyones expectations given the state of the roster. Year 4 was cut short by Covid. Year 5 was a really good year as we reached top 4 in the nation through the middle of Februrary, then the injury bug hit and Washington shot poorly in the NCAA tourney. Last year was an OK year given the injury situation. This year was a question mark coming in due to the 2 best players declaring for the draft and a whole bunch of graduations. The team has reasonable talent, but the team doesn't have cohesion on either end of the floor. We'll see how the season plays out.
I get it, post season success is all non-basketball centric fans care about and admittedly, it is the most important part of the season and where coaches earn their money. Holtmann's contract goes through 2028. He's going to at least get one more year to show what he can do with better recruiting classes and I'm fine with that.
What did you think of his “coaching” during the all access broadcast?
I thought he sounded like a coach that was trying to be patient, but a bit exacerbated by players not following his instructions. I mean when you make it clear coming out of a timeout that you are in a 3/4 court trap and 30 seconds later after a made basket 3 guys are jogging down the court with their backs to the ball, what are you to do? I think people fail to understand the challenge coming into the season with 7 new faces in the rotation and 2 of the three returnees that you hope can lead the team missed significant time over the summer and pre-season.
I get that some would like him to tear into guys, but thats just not his MO. He's gonna get through next year at least, so we'll see how it plays out.
All fair points. I just don’t think they are buying into why he’s trying to sell.
This is fair but fails to explain why his teams are consistently losing 3 games a year to teams that fail to win 15 games (far inferior opponents).
That is coaching. He fails to prepare his team, fails to motivate them, and doesn’t have the X’s and O’s to generate scoring opportunities (instead he just hopes his scorers will go win with 1:1 ball late). That’s why we are losing 3 games a year to Minnesota/Nebraska type opponents.
Sure, better talent will equate to more overall wins but so long as he’s the coach he will get out coached in a handful of close games that are critical in order to win a conference title. The All Access did him no favors.
^^^This^^^. A coach actually has to draw up something in the form of X’s and O’s To get a numbers advantage for his players. It’s all about getting a mismatch . Holtmann is severely conflict aversed. He just doesn’t make adjustments or he doesn’t chew into his guys for trying to play hero ball. This team didn’t do that earlier in the season. Now at the end of every damn game, which inevitably are close, one guy possesses the ball and the others stand around waiting for a highly improbable shot to fall. That is on the player but mainly, it’s a function of the inability of the coach
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I don't think we've had superior talent at OSU from the beginning of his tenure. My biggest complaint about him has been his recruiting and whether he can recruit well enough to take us to the next level. Last year had 2 really good players, but the supporting cast was not that strong.
Recruiting is 100% on the coaches and frankly wasn't good enough years 2-5 (gets a bit of a break on the first 2 classes due to late hire and state of the program). It seems to have picked up. Had a 1 and done last year. Have a 1 and done this year and 3 guys that should have very good careers at OSU if they stick around. Next years class again has top 60 guys that are likely to be hear at least 2-3 years. He's going to get a chance to see what he can do with better recruiting classes.
No no Wigmon, I think people would’ve been completely reasonable if Jay Wright missed the tourney his first three years if he were he coach at OSU
Just stop with the Ohio connection stuff. At Ohio State you go out and hire the best coach regardless where they come from.
Like in football, nobody in Alabama gives a rats ass where Nick Saban is from.
Benchwarmer
Unfortunately todays game was a familiar script. Two yrs ago with NBA talent on the team and we can’t get it done. Same last year and now we seem to see things playing out again. His teams have too many turnovers, don’t suffocate on defense, can’t break a press, don’t have any creativity on offense and seldom produce after a time out. Holtmans a good guy and can recruit but he doesn’t seem to be able to get the best out of them.
Theres no shame in moving on and no one has to be hateful about it either. I’ve enjoyed Genes tenure here at THE. He has done really well throughout the program bringing in folks that can develop fine, respectable young men and women. And most of those coaches do so and have winning programs too.
I would love to see Chris Holtman succeed here, but it just has not worked out. It would not hurt the program to part ways and bring in some fresh blood.
Go Bucks.
Captain Bucknut
I would roll the dice and take someone like Dru Joyce II, longtime coach of St. V-M. He’s an Ohio coaching legend, he is respected by the kids in the community, he’s an X’s and O’s guy and he can recruit the hell out of the state.
(Not that this would or should factor into anything, but it also wouldn’t hurt that he’s LeBron’s high school coach.)
How the hell is this getting so many down votes!?
IDK, it makes a lot of sense to me.
Let's Go Bucks
The correct answer is because people don't understand what downvotes are for, but I think it's because hiring a high school coach directly to a major D1 basketball program likely sets the program back years. It's just two very different things. It would be like hiring the county commissioner from some small town to be your Governor. It might be the same sport, but it's a whole different job description.
I’d like to see OSU hire Del Harris. He’s 85, so he’s got plenty of experience.
On the plus side, he remembers peach baskets and underhand shooting.
He remembers when you could get two Hershey bars for a nickel. A nickel!
I liked him better in the Naked Gun movies
Shirley, you can’t be serious!
He went to my high school!
“I just roke up” - Daniel Larson
Get Eric Musselmam from Arkansas he is an Ohio kid. He can recruit top tier talent.
Louie Kitchen
Eric Musselman may have been born in Ohio when his dad was coaching at Ashland, and moved back here when his dad was coaching the Cavs, but, I wouldn’t consider him an “Ohio kid”. Furthermore, you do realize that his dad was the coach at Minnesota during the Mugging, right? That move wouldn’t sit well with the old-timers, nor would it with me.
You mean the old timers half asleep at the game. Maybe ruffling the feathers will wake them up from their slumber. I literally have watched old ladies knitting at games. But either way Musselman can coach!
Louie Kitchen
I’m in my mid 30s and I want nothing to do with the Musselman family.
His father should have served jail time.
Why should the son pay for the sins of the father....
Musselman is a hell of a coach...who the hell ever thought Arkansas would become strong again...nobody has ever gotten that program to be good since Nolan Richardson's 2 year run of dominance.
Let's Go Bucks
That display of ugliness has to be one of the worst incidents recorded on a basketball court. Up there with Kermit Washington nearly killing Rudy Tomjanovich
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
True...and the son had nothing to do with it
Let's Go Bucks
Agreed. His son has zero to do with that
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
We don't need to vilify his son for what he did - allowing an utter assault of the OSU basketball team that left players hospitalized with bad injuries.
But we also don't need to open our arms and award him a multi-million dollar contract to come coach here.
Both can be reasonable takes. His son didn’t do it and OSU can find another quality coach not named Musselman
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Schoedinger or some funeral home chain should have ads at the Schottenstein (Morgue) Center. Have their ad slogan where cheering goes to die and have the 10 off percent discount coupon as Basket casket. I just hope Gene Smith terminates Holtmann from his contract in a week to a few weeks just to end the fans suffering.
BuckeyeYankee
Should the sins of the father be paid for by the son?
No, but he shouldn't be made head coach of the school that his father screwed out of a big 10 title by an unprecedented on court mugging, that if it happened today, would probably result in the school being suspended from Big10 play for at least 1 year, if not given the death penalty.
Screwing OSU out of a Big Ten title is the tip of the ice berg. Fred Taylor was as good of a coach as there was outside of LA in college hoops - this event effectively broke coach Taylor because the Big ten did nothing about this assault.
My FiL has been a season ticket holder since the 70’s. I’ll ask him again, he knows his history, but I don’t think he’d be mad at the son for leading us to prosperity.
Coaches Id like Gene to at least consider interviewing.
1. Eric Musselman
2. Nate Oats
3. John Callipari
4. Jake Diebler
5. Mick Cronin
At the very least, the program needs a change and I hope Gene will make it sooner than later.
Screw Cronin. He's a cry baby and was the stooge that implicated us in the Damon Flint saga. Hard pass on that bitch!
Yep, and fuck Bob Huggins, too, while we’re at it.
Rarely, and I mean almost never, do we agree. Today is that day. +1
Cross off 1, 3, and 5.
I’m fine with Diebler finishing the year and seeing what he can do. Fine with Oats too.
Musselman. We may be a forgiving society and maybe time is intended to cure all wounds but if there is one thing in college hoops I never want to hear it’s a Mussleman coaching at OSU.
this is either some fabulous trolling or a complete lack of history of our program.
I wish I could upvote this infinity times.
Fire him tonight. He will not lead this program any further than he has done already.
I Hate Michigan.
Holtmann probably has until end of next season, at least, unless things go way off the rails before then (and they might).
Diebler is a great recruiter. You could promote him and probably keep the classes intact. Maybe he pans out as a HC. Could be worth the risk.
Aside from that, for me it's Nate Oats. Would OSU pay the necessary amount to get him? Probably not.
Dennis Gates is worth keeping an eye on. The power conference sample size with him is very small and Missouri doesn't play a lick of defense, so I have my concerns about whether he'd be able to elevate a program that plays in the B1G. But, like I said, worth keeping an eye on.
I like Holtmann a lot. He's not nearly as bad a coach as many think. His teams are consistently competitive, and that is no easy thing in college basketball (btw, lol at the Chris Mack suggestion). But whether it's losing to PSU three times, or blowing leads, or not being able to overcome bad roster luck, or this season where we seem borderline incapable of winning close games, it's starting to feel like Holtmann has mastered the art of coming up short.
I am in a weird spot where I can no longer advocate for keeping Holtmann, the pattern of frustration has become much too wearisome, but I also don't have a lot of optimism about what the next move for OSU might be. The most realistic option that could avoid a major rebuild and MIGHT work out is trying Diebler as the HC. With attendance being so poor even when we have a ranked team and with athletic profits down in general, I just don't believe that OSU will come anywhere near offering basketball coach candidates a T10 salary. And I think that's what it would take to get a guaranteed upgrade right now. So if we want to move on I think we'll probably have to gamble, and Diebler seems about as good a bet as any as he should be able to keep most of the 2022 and 2023 guys onboard as he was the primary recruiter for basically all of them, and should continue to recruit well in the future. But his assistant hires, particularly finding a great "defensive coordinator," would be key.
the empire never ended
Diebler would need to grab a guy like Juwan Howard did (the old St.Bonaventure coach, grizzled vet) to give them some serious X & O mojo which I think CH seriously lacks (end of half/game plays). I wonder if a Beulein would consider?
I know they have a lot of debt from Covid but still that $100mm Football TV contract helps some. Football and Men’s hoops are the two revenue sports, they gotta fill that arena and get fans excited.
Oates would be a Gary Williams type coup. Would love to see it. Williams was pretty hot @ BC when TOSU hired him.
Other than having the last name Diebler, what do people see in him? As the son shouldn’t pay the sins of the father, the son shouldn’t be able to ride the coattails of the father (or brother).
Well, we don't know how Diebler would be as a head coach.
But he has been the lead recruiter on almost all of our 2022 and 2023 recruits, which means he is basically responsible for our best recruiting classes since the Russell/Tate/KBD class, and he did it largely with out of state kids. If you think that's no big deal, especially in the current era where basketball first schools can throw all kinds of NIL at their targets, then you're delusional.
The other aspect of that is that these players might actually buy in with Diebler as HC. Based on comments that Holtmann has made about what he's looking for and from what we saw and heard with the All Access Minny game, I think some of the guys are tuning him out a bit. That's a recipe for disaster because at that point it doesn't matter how well you can coach on the board, if you can't get the players motivated and executing, it's worthless.
Diebler would by no means be some home run hire from the get. It'd be a gamble that you hope pans out because you know he can recruit and essentially you are trying to lock in that recruiting ability at OSU. It would give you some program continuity and hopefully maintain the current classes, which might avoid a big rebuild (that could end up leading nowhere). And based on our offensive efficiency up until our guys stopped executing and sharing the ball well, I think Diebler could potentially be a fine offensive coach. Like I said, getting a defensive guru on board as an assistant would be pretty crucial, as Diebler ran our defense last season and it was not good, to say the least.
the empire never ended
Couldn't agree with you more. One thing many people forget is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jake's dad, is or was a basketball coach. While it doesn't mean much, kids that have parents that have been coaches, do inherit some of those attributes whether it be skills on the court or coaching skills and abilities. Not saying Jake has those skills but maybe he has and in his current role cannot execute those skills. I would not be against the hire.
Secondly, I do not think Holtman is a terrible coach, but I feel he overthinks which leads to poor decisions on player rotations and play calling. You can see it in the players body language on the court. This team plays best when they are moving and passing. Look at past games where they beat teams like Duke and other high-profile teams. When they share the ball and move, they play like the best team in the country. It's when they slow down and play isolation is when they struggle on offense. They need to put the players in positions where they are most effective. For example, Sueing's mid-range game and interior scoring is where he is effective. His ass should not be shooting three's. Defense, their defensive scheme sucks. Undersized in the middle, defensive rotations are slow, especially late in the game. However, the officiating in B1G games sucks. Ohio State has more calls go against them than most and it does impact the outcome of the games. The one exception is the Rutger's game at home. The refs blew that call badly.
Holtman needs to create an identity for the team. The question is, "Who are we?" and create that identity moving forward. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
Serious question but with the financial talk, at what point does fielding 36 varsity sports garner more pride than being a top 10 men’s basketball school. I wish we’d cut a few programs and make the rest better as a result.
Sort of like when a retail chain trims some fat and closes underperforming stores so the others thrive. This is a good point. There comes a point in time when bigger isn’t always better. The law of diminishing returns becomes a “thing”.
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Yeah no …….OSU is fine …. And highly ranked in almost every sport they field & making revenue off them … if anything OSU can easily cut the Baseball program , thats just a gigantic waste of money
Pat Kelsey
Nate Oats
Sean Miller
That’s the list
A polite "no thank you" on Sean Miller. Besides the dirty past and how he basically stabbed Thad in the back with the whole Kobi Simmons fiasco, he had an unreal talent level at Arizona when he was coach there, arguably the best talent level in the whole country... and never got past the Elite 8. His last 6 years he never made it past the Round of 64, unless you count the vacated S16. His last three years he didn't even make the Dance. He won the Pac-12 a fair amount but the Pac-12 was also pretty garbage most of those years with very few Tourney bids and the only other consistent program contender being Oregon. Miller got a hard reset and seems reinvigorated at Xavier. I think that program and that conference are a good fit for him. I am not completely opposed to him being the coach of OSU at some point in the future, but he'd be down a ways on my list of phone calls right now.
Nate Oats should be the top target if OSU is trying to hire a new coach any time soon. But there are multiple programs around the country who are looking at Oats the same way and who are probably far closer to making a coaching change/hire (see Louisville or Texas, for instance), to say nothing of the amount of money that might be required to make that hire if it becomes a bidding war between Alabama and whoever the other suitors are.
Pat Kelsey, I mean... he falls in the gamble category. He won the Big South 4 times in 9 years at Winthrop. Good for him but the Big South is a terrible conference. His first season at College of Charleston they were 17-15 and 8-10 in the Colonial. This season they only have 1 loss, but that loss is by almost 40 points to UNC. They haven't really beat anyone good unless you count squeaking out a 2-point win over Virginia Tech, who is currently 11-6 and 1-5 in the ACC. They also squeaked out wins vs. the likes of Stetson, Towson, Presbyterian, and UNCW. I give them credit for actually winning close games, something Ohio State seems determined NOT to do these days, but this was not a murderer's row of tough competition that CoC played through to get to their record. With candidates like Kelsey the argument always becomes "But imagine what he could do with better talent!" Well, we have no clue how well Kelsey would recruit at this level. This is where I'd almost be more inclined to promote Diebler vs. hiring a guy like Kelsey, despite Diebler's lack of HC experience... because we do know how Diebler can recruit and I think it is precisely at the level that Ohio State needs.
People think Kelsey could be the next Nate Oats, I guess, but you have to remember that in Oats' four years at Buffalo, it was pretty much a straight arc upwards. Made the Dance his first season, missed it the second season but had a better conference record, and then Buffalo performed at an exceptionally high level his last two seasons there, finishing 27-9 (15-3) and 32-4 (16-2) and making the R32 two times in a row. And the thing that gives people more optimism about the longevity and sustainability of Oats' success (because, let's face it, last season was a disappointing one for the Crimson Tide) is the level he is recruiting at. Maybe Kelsey can recruit to that level but he hasn't yet accomplished anything close to what Oats did his last two years at Buffalo, so you would be gambling quite a bit on a guy who hasn't proven half as much as Holtmann had before he came here.
Now, if Kelsey is able to finish this season strong and finish next season even better, and maybe win a game or two in the Dance, yeah, you could be looking at the next hot mid-major coach commodity. I think you do have to proceed with a little caution, though. Matt McMahon was about as appealing a mid-major candidate as you could ask for and LSU is currently 1-4 in the SEC. Doesn't mean McMahon won't work out, he could work out great for LSU, but it's a dicey game trying to project mid-major success onto a program that has to recruit and perform at such a consistently high level to make waves in a power conference, especially one with as much grueling depth as the B1G.
the empire never ended
So Kelsey hasn't accomplished anything of note. Solid coach at a low mid, 17-15 last year at CoC. Pretty much the same as hiring Holtmann.
Oats not much of a track record either. Did a good job in fairly short stint at Buffalo (was assistant under Hurley who left for ASU) and did win a couple of tourney games. I'm guessing the main reason he's on the list is because he's having a good year this year, not that he's necessarily accomplished much in his career. Biggest obstacle with him is large buyout that OSU would be on the hook for and the reason AZ didn't pursue him as hard as some others to replace Miller.
In 17 years, Miller has never been to a FF and missed the NCAA tourney 6 times (8 if you include the vacated seasons for rules violations). Other than recruiting (through nefarious actions) how is he better than Holtmann?
I would add that with Holtmann vs. Kelsey at least OSU had the benefit of seeing how Holtmann did at Butler in the Big East (and he did pretty well). Kelsey would be a far bigger unknown.
I agree with you in principle on Oats in terms of the track record but I think with me I get it with him because he's turned out to be an excellent recruiter and his players seem to buy in with him. So it feels like the ceiling of whatever program has him should tend to be on the higher side.
the empire never ended
Biggest difference between Kelsey and Holtmann is that Kelsey has actually won something. Holtmann has never even won a conference title. He has a much, much better track record than Holtmann at the same level. Also, Charleston didn't lose by 40 to UNC. It was 16 in a game they were leading at half.
Holtmann only spent three years in the Big South. Kelsey didn't win anything in his first three years in the Big South. They actually coached against each other in the same league for a year with Holtmann going 11-5 and Kelsey going 6-10.
You're right, I completely misread the final score on that game with UNC, it was a 16 point deficit at the end.
Kelsey does not have a "much, much" better track record than Holtmann at the same level. In 9 years as a HC at Winthrop, Kelsey had two appearances in the Dance and zero wins in the Dance. His first 3 years at Winthrop they finished 5th, tied for 2nd, and tied for 3rd in the conference. Holtmann was only at Gardner Webb for 3 years and dramatically improved their standing in the Big South by his final season, where they tied for 2nd. I don't think you can really compare the two coaches based on their Big South tenures other than that in their third years they had their programs at similar levels. If Holtmann had stayed at Gardner Webb, he might easily have ended up dominating the Big South, who knows.
Kelsey has nothing on his resume comparable to Holtmann's time at Butler. That doesn't mean he won't have that at some point, he just doesn't have it right now. I would prefer to see a larger sample size of success from Kelsey, including some Tournament success. Or see him at a smaller power conference school and see how he handles the step up in competition. Because right now we know almost nothing about how his recruiting and coaching would fare at this level. With Nate Oats at least he had those Tournament wins and some other good program wins during his time at Buffalo (like @Syracuse and @WVU); Bama rolled the dice on him, for sure, but there were some solid indicators that he could work out for them. Kelsey doesn't have as many of those types of indicators in his favor yet.
the empire never ended
Scott Drew is just chilling in Waco… Surely we can outbid Baptist gold for a Lutheran.
Scott Drew’s salary is allegedly $3,511,477.
OSU fans would love him since he’s a nice guy and whatnot. Per PR, he’d be beloved.
Would Alabama just let Nate Oats walk away? I’d like to see him in Columbus too. But Alabama is similar in that they are a “football” school but they are in much better shape going forward. Unless OSU throws a ton at him and he brings his players?
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
I don't want to be that guy, but after what happened over the weekend with one of his players, he may be looking for way to get out of town. It's a horrible situation that Coach Oats may want to distance himself from at the end of the season.
You need to be humble or you will get humbled. - Jocko Willink
Its my understanding his buyout is over $12M. Oats certainly wouldn't pay it, so it would be on the school trying to hire him away that would have to pony up.
I don’t see OSU coming up with that kind of money. Not that they can’t but I doubt they’ll bite that bullet
When telling the truth becomes a revolutionary concept, it’s wise to join the revolution
Go for an NBA guy. If you want a good college basketball program run an NBA offense and sell yourself on developing players for the pro level whether it be Europe or NBA.
This is kind of what Georgetown tried to do with Ewing. That's failing pretty miserably.
It's also what IU has tried to do with Mike Woodson. TBD on that one. The Hoosier fans aren't overjoyed with him at the moment because they feel he is trying to coach too much like a NBA coach and not coaching to what his roster's actual abilities are. But it's far from a disaster and could improve.
Then there's scUM and Juwan Howard. To me, Howard is mostly a figurehead there who has recruiting pull. I do think he's involved with the coaching and makes a lot of the rotation decisions (questionable decisions, at that) but I think Martelli handles a lot of the actual coaching of those teams when it comes to the game-planning and so on.
I don't really see a bargain bin NBA guy who I think "Oh yeah, great fit for Ohio State." Billy Donovan would be awesome because he has high level college HC experience in addition to his time in the NBA. But the college game has changed since Donovan was in it and who knows if he is really that interested in coming back to it (or staying in it even if he did come back). Plus his base salary with the Bulls is $6 million a year.
There's no sure-fire way to hire yourself a big-time winner in college basketball. Even guys who were previously quite successful can struggle in new situations (see Hoiberg at Nebraska). There are so many extenuating factors and so much parity in the sport, success really is a very fickle thing. I think you probably couldn't go too wrong with hiring a currently proven college basketball coach who also recruits at a high level, like Nate Oats. Those are the level of guys that basketball powerhouses snatch up, though, as soon as they need a guy. So if we do move on from Holtmann, I just hope we are either very bold (financially) or very shrewd about it.
the empire never ended
I'm not saying that you go hire Jawan Howard or Patrick Ewing. There are coaches that were in the NBA now that are purely Basketball junkies who understand the changes in the game. Every team basically runs the NBA offenses because they work. They get efficient shots for your best shot makers. They know how to build lineups for this also. This is why a Luka Doncic or any European can walk into the NBA and seem like a veteran, Europe basically helped form today's offenses.
I know multiple players in the NBA, and their biggest gripe with the college game is that their college coaches didn't do much to prepare them for the NBA. Guys who played pro overseas and learned pro concepts were much more prepared. After seeing this Ohio State team this year I see a coach who has no clue how to adapt to his talent. Bryce Sensenbaugh may be the most talented scorer I've seen during his tenure. You run your sets and offense through him, not Justice Sueing or some of the other program guys they currently have.
Find a coach who understands modern pro offensive and defensive concepts, and build around that. Find assistants that can recruit. The college game is like watching the Hosiers compared to actual basketball.
According to Jerry Palm's bracketology that was updated this morning, Ohio State is officially out...not even one of the first four teams out. Yes lots can change, but midpoint year 6 you're a bubble team with absolutely no good will to fall back on.
Honestly...at this point, hire anybody. Minnesota's coach would be an upgrade!
"We didn't play with enough force tonight"
I really hate this "hire anybody" rhetoric and I hope you're being facetious.
I am not happy with the current regime at this point but the reality is that there are far, far more coaches out there with worse resumes than Holtmann than there are coaches with better ones.
If you think it can't get worse, watch more basketball. Look at Louisville. Look at Georgetown. Look at Cal. Thing is, I know you know it can get worse, Shook, so I am not sure why you feel the need to make statements this extreme.
The intent of replacing Holtmann can't be "let's just make a change for the sake of making a change." It needs to be, "let's improve the program and its future." Otherwise, we very easily could go from a middle tier B1G/R32-type program to a bottom of the B1G/NIT-type program. Adding UCLA and USC to the conference isn't going to make things any easier, so if we fire Holtmann, I sure do hope OSU takes the task of replacing him seriously.
the empire never ended
I hate giving the job to someone that’s never Head Coached, worked out terribly with Randy Ayers. It will never happen but canning CH this weekend and promoting Diebler to right the year as an “interim “. Would be great, give him a shot without a long term contract.
I don't think it will happen this season but I do agree with the idea that it would be good to see Diebler in an interim role and see how he does.
Gene needs to have a secret sit-down with Diebler and be like, "Hey, stick around for at least one more season. If things aren't going well next season, you will get your chance to audition for the head job."
At the same time, are you putting Diebler in a no-win situation with something like that? I guess it would depend on what kind of expectations you were having in order for him to get the job.
the empire never ended
Yes I do realize it could get worse, I enjoy speaking in extremes lol
I posted my head coach pick below...even though it would be a huge gamble
"We didn't play with enough force tonight"
Seems like it will have to get a little worse for a while for Holtmann to really get canned.
If they lose 9 in a row or are 1-8 in the last 9. Does that count?
That could count, but it's very unlikely.
The players eventually get so tired of being terrible that they wake up and win a few to save some face for everybody. Face will likely be saved.
I know you are 100% right.
I just don’t understand what’s keeping him afloat as it is. Why did someone who won zero Big Ten titles, zero BTT championships, and with no March success get a contract extension? He hasn’t even finishes top 4 in the Big Ten since year 1.
Either Gene has very low expectations for this program, Gene can’t swallow his pride, or both.
What about the head coach of the Harlem Globetrotters? They almost never lose.
Rick Pitino is available /s
Maybe if the Bulls fire Billy Donovan, he would want to come back to college.
Benchwarmer
Evan Turner interested? I know he was a Celtics assistant coach, doesn’t look like he’s still on a staff so maybe no longer perusing that route
What about Scoonie Penn? Ohio State legend...currently coaching in the NBA....currently coaching one of the most exciting players in the NBA...Would it be a gamble? It sure would be. But it would be an exciting hire that probably wouldn't break the bank...and either it works out or it doesn't work out and it gives the program more time to wait for that home run hire candidate to truly be available. Because I don't think a current HOME RUN hire who would seriously consider coming here exists right now. Scoonie would be my pick. Someone mentioned Evan Turner above...ET is my favorite OSU athlete of all time but I would feel better with Scoonie.
I think it's a lot more likely Holtmann opts for a change of scenery after this season than Gene firing him. This season is 95% heading for disaster, but I don't think Gene would consider firing him until April 2024 at the earliest. I don't hate Chris Holtmann one bit and obviously the dude has forgotten more about basketball than I ever will know...but the doctors are about to quit administering CPR and are about to call the time of death on this era...as Herbie Husker peers through the window with a sinister look in his face.
Sometimes things just don't work out!
"We didn't play with enough force tonight"
Why are we just naming former players? That rarely works out.
Seriously, though.
You don't know what you don't know but I would not be optimistic about this program's future if OSU hired some of the names I see people throwing out there.
Things aren't peachy keen at the moment but there is a lot of room for them to get worse. I'd prefer that OSU be very intentional about trying to upgrade the program vs. making a change just for the sake of making a change.
the empire never ended
Naming former players with a coaching background, to be fair. Scoonie makes a lot of sense. He was director of player personnel at OSU and is now an assistant coach for the Grizzlies, in his third year. He might not be the BEST option, but he certainly is an option. And one that some fans would get excited about on name alone
Ohio State is not the place for your first head coaching gig. You need to prove yourself at a smaller school first.
Why? According to these comments OSU is a mediocre job. What did coaching before do for Holtmann? He might have wasted his best years at small schools
Exactly, look at Ryan Day. You can either coach or you can't, experience means nothing.
That's also my thoughts on Ryan Day
Let's Go Bucks
They'd be excited until he lost his first game.
the empire never ended
Jared Sullinger coached Carmen's Crew. He should be the coach.
A little bit of objectivity can go a long way
Carmen's Crew was not what I'd call a ringing endorsement for Sully's coaching ability at this point in time.
the empire never ended
Sometimes the sarcasm is so implied I don’t feel like doing the font.
ET should be the coach. He has a mediocre at best podcast so he knows ball.
A little bit of objectivity can go a long way
Chris Jent
Onward and upward! Go Buckeyes!
You need to be humble or you will get humbled. - Jocko Willink
Has no interest in recruiting, not sure he even likes college coaching. Didn't do much of anything for OSU when he was an assistant here.
the empire never ended
I've been a long time defender of Holtman, but have finally realized it is time to move on. Love the previous poster's suggestion of Chris Jent, I think he could turn this program around.
I don't expect OSU to buyout Holtman and then pony up even more money to go get someone making over 3 mil (roughly the starting point for a top 25 salaried coach). That's why if Holtman is let go I think they go the Pat Kelsey type route (makes 550k plus bonuses). They can double his salary and he can come and be a long term solution. If it doesn't work out his buyout wouldn't be a hinderance to try getting another coach.
A little bit of objectivity can go a long way
To the people who say Kelsey and Gates have not accomplished enough to get the job over Holtmann, I say so what if we fire Holtmann and Kelsey turns out to be worse? Am I really going to miss being dead average and a first round exit in the tournament? This program under Holtmann is just flat out not enjoyable. They blow leads, they never win a big game in March, they lose to bad teams like dead-last Minnesota. Honestly, failing to make the tournament altogether and consistent bad first week exits are the same to me.
I would rather take a chance and be better with a new coach and maybe risk failing then keeping the mediocre status quo.
That's your prerogative. For me, I hate not making the Dance. Absolutely hate it. That to me is the one concrete goal that a Buckeye coach should meet more often than not. That's why I have given Holtmann more leeway than some because he makes the Dance every season, something a lot of coaches fail to do. That said, we might miss the Dance this season and the pattern of coming up short of achieving anything noteworthy and losing close games has become too frustrating.
But I'd rather have a coach that gets us to the Dance and keeps the program competitive than someone who totally sinks the program. I'd much rather be where OSU has been with Holtmann than where Indiana was with Archie Miller or Louisville was with Chris Mack and now Kenny Payne, or where Georgetown is with Patrick Ewing, or where Minnesota was with Lil Pitino, and so on and so forth.
So while I don't necessarily think that we should give Holtmann a long leash here and do think we should expect better, it absolutely matters to me that if we're replacing him we're trying to do so with a guy who can help this program make progress. It matters. Treating this like "anyone would be better" is asinine and ignorant. Some coaches would be better, and OSU needs to hire one of them or be very smart about who COULD be better if given the chance.
the empire never ended
Well, we can cross Bill Self off the list. Just called TO's at the end of regulation and overtime and drew up plays for his team to turn the ball over. didn't even get a shot off. Gotta be an awful coach if you design those plays.
Has he done that 5x a year for the last 5 years or was tonight the exception?
Did you happen to take note of the great K-State play call with what could have been the last shot? Great call!
I ignore all of the execution at the end of games in close wins and only focus on those where the play failed.
To be clear, you missed the salient point (I'll take responsibility since it was dressed in sarcasm). sometimes coaches set up good plays and players fail to execute. Sometimes calling a TO to set up a play allows the defense to regroup and prepare.
My point is Holtmann consistently fails to set up a play that generates a good look. Whether it was Duane Washington Jr three years ago or Brice today, he is relaying on an iso. There are no back door screens or guys coming off screens on the wing. It’s literally clear out and resort to street ball 1:1. Even under the basket against UNC we were forced to lob it into the corner to Zed. The games we have managed to win in these situations (few and far between) have required someone making a well-contested shot.
Maybe Holtmann is an X and O’s wiz late game and his team just isn’t listening… but if that were the case, that would mean he’s had 5 years of players ignoring him.
yeah, it was such a terrible coaching job choosing to run plays for your best scorer and getting your team ranked #4 in the nation. Just awful.
I don't know that he is a wiz. I know he's drawn up plenty of plays that ended up in good looks and I know enough about basketball to understand that the play against Purdue was poor execution and that a lot of coaches will use isolation with their best player to get the last shot with the game tied. Arguing otherwise simply shows rigid bias.
Texas A&M was briefly top 4 in football this year. Making a quick stop in the top 5 doesn't make it a top 5 season. We finished 5th in the conference that year and lost 6 of our last 9 games. Was it an entertaining year? Absolutely. Was it an accomplished year...unfortunately no as all measurable goals were left on the table (Big Ten title, BTT championship, deep tournament run, sweep TTUN).
A&M was #4 before any games were played. We were #4 on 2/22, with 2 and 1/2 weeks left in the season, then Young got hurt and we didn't have enough depth to make up for it.
Maybe we can now finally get Archie Miller.
He is the least sweaty Miller brother.
John Calipari
Ohio Against the World
No thanks!
Some good discussion here, some bad discussion, but mostly good discussion lol
Holtmann isn't getting fired unless this season goes completely off the rails, and even then his buyout is so big it probably wouldn't happen until 2024....the extension Gene gave him might go down as the dumbest thing any of my sports teams have done in history (not the WORST but the dumbest)
We need to focus our energy on him leaving for another job. You're already seeing national guys float his name out there for the Notre Dame job. If Notre Dame hired him away, I already told my co-workers I will bring in donuts to celebrate. I personally would not be surprised if Holtmann was looking to get outta Columbus. The dude isn't exactly great at handling criticism and hooo boy it's been brutal out there on social media the last 2 days. The Jeff Goodmann tweet "bE caReFul WhaT yOu WiSh For" was an absolute farce lol
"We didn't play with enough force tonight"
I really hope it works out that he takes another job. Texas/shaka smart comes to mind. Please ND make it happen!
I think it was an article on CBS sports or something that said Holtmann's buyout is 2.5M. They named 6 candidates who ND should look at for the job and he was #1. They said he's a top 15 coach, that makes top 30 money, so he would make a lot of sense.
MrBuck24
If Chris Holtmann is a top 15 coach then I am Tiger Woods
"We didn't play with enough force tonight"