It starts up front by a defensive line that can pressure enough to put our DBs in an advantageous spot. Would be huge if one of those second year ends can be a force. And if Hall can be what he was first half of the year. We will definitely be better on defense, the question is how much better.
BINGO! it’s easy to shine a light on the bad plays in the secondary but the missing ingredient is a pass rush that gets there in time. A split second is the difference between a big sack and a big pass.
Also there's a big difference having elite shut down corners like Denzel Ward, Okudah, Lattimore and etc than what we've seen in the last 3 seasons. In modern football, it starts with an elite pass rush and then top flight corners. I think Denzel Burke is a good zone coverage corner but he definitely struggles against better receivers in man coverage.
It’s the chicken egg argument of football. The most agreed upon thought tho is that you can’t give great qb’s time to pick you apart. Even Stetson can do that and his ceiling is limited.
It's not the pass rush's fault when a defensive back falls down or when a corner misses an easy tackle on a short pass which turns into a touchdown like against Michigan. Both Michigan and Georgia have elite offensive lines and I thought we were getting pretty good pressure on both. The secondary is soft and has been since 2019. Not many guys back there willing to tackle, especially at corner.
Pass rush and coverage are things you need every play. A guy falling down or missing a tackle are random things that fans won’t ever forget but it’s not something that you should worry about every time the ball is snapped. Pointing out random plays won’t exactly fix much in the future. However, a great pass rush will start helping game one.
Not that Stetson Bennet was bad, kinda Brock Purdy like as he got the ball where it needed to go, but pressure causes a average QB to become less than average.
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
The one thing that I thought Bennett was very good at was handling pressure when blitzed. It didn’t appear that Georgia’s offensive line gave Stetson much time to get a good look at options, but he could usually find someone open. Our offensive line gave CJ all kinds of time to find a receiver.
I think it goes both ways. If the ball comes out too fast the DL has no shot. Pressure can make a ball come out when a QB is not ready and this last year they did that fairly well I thought. I saw a stat where they were first in the league with pressures off four man fronts.
We often look to the DL, but a big deal is how the secondary confuses things or makes things merky. The QB having to hold onto the ball another second is a big deal.
When we knock OSUs DL, even in years where they are not as good the opposing QBs are getting it out fast and that is on the secondary as much as the line itself. With Coombs for instance it would not have mattered if a Young and Bosa were on that line. The QBs were getting the ball out so fast because they knew what the coverage was and that it would not change.
You need both to be good enough. If one is particularly good it helps the other.
I am not convinced that Knowles is not our Don Brown. Blitz and kill bad teams, use the same stupid philosophy against teams that can easily counter it.
You don't get it. The ideal Jim Knowles defense has DBs who can't cover and defensive linemen that can't hit the quarterback when it matters. This season went exactly how Knowles wanted! #FireKnowles
Its kind of hard to sack the QB …… WHEN YOUR DAMN CBS CANT COVER , like Jesus , how many times do analyst and sports journalists have to tell you people that OSU doesnt sack the QB much cause the corners cant hold up
When you hear them say it’s a coverage sack, it’s after the qb sat in the pocket for what seemed like an eternity because the blocking held up for the 3-5 seconds they needed to. The d line is hoping to get there quicker than that because it’s hard to cover that long. The rush affects the play before some routes are even halfway ran unless it doesn’t.
If you have inept DBs you do not call blitzes/coverages that leave those inept DBs without help behind them, so when their foreseeable mistakes occur you give up 15-20 yards, not 70-yard touchdowns.
And if we block better every offensive play should result in. a touchdown. Doesn’t work that way, you design your game plan around your players. You must have stopped watching after week 11.
I expect in year 2 you will see some natural progression. But I also see a lack of top-end talent, playmakers, and stars on D. I see a lot of average guys out there. I do not see any standout unit. And I remain unconvinced that a 4-2-5 is the best base defense. It seemed to confuse our secondary more than the opponent at times, and allowed a huge number of backbreaking big plays.
Maybe so. But we gave up 87 points in our last two games and the two highest yards per play against games in OSU history in our last two games played. Think about that, the two worst defensive performances in osu history by one metric in our last two games played.
So I remain not convinced Knowles’ scheme is the answer.
Sure, but like I said in another way it goes both ways here. If the coverage makes the QB hesitate than that helps the DL get there. That was the case when Coombs was the DC. The QB could get the ball out so fast. The DL got alot of crap but the DL was getting back there really fast, but the QB was getting the ball out faster because the QB knew where to go and went there right away.
The secondary and DL work off each other. We too often say it is the DL that helps the secondary but it is a two way street situation. They help each other.
I agree with this sentiment but think the DBs were still behind the curve comparatively. To me, any departures from the secondary this season are for the better which I can't say about our DEs. It would be great if both could improve this year.
Have you even bothered to look at the secondary? We have a single returning corner in Burke who hopefully was just having what woody used to call the sophomore slump. The NEXT most experienced corner in the ENTIRE ROOM is Jordan Hancock. The ONLY other corners with ANY experience are Jyaire Brown and Ryan Turner (to a lesser degree) That isn't an issue its STRAIGHT UP HORRIFYING... Last season that room was a walking mash unit with a significantly greater depth one that was already considered thin. If Burke goes down or Hancock you are relying on people with 0 starting experience. Things are so thin that the incoming freshman is going to have to be pressed into duty as active backups. While I am definitely confident about the linebackers we have to find guys that can play on the OL.
There is a REASON and it ISNT just injuries that limited PT by guys like Mike Hall on the DL... If he learns how to play discipline his ceiling is AA-level play but he has yet to prove that he can consistently play his gap assignment I do agree that there is potential but if their are issues with injury in the secondary or guys arent being disciplined it could be a defense that is not very good.
I do agree with you … and yet, had we been able to field a team vs Georgia with even a #2 or #3 RB., or a #1 or #2 TE, we would very likely have been the owner of the national championship trophy . ( Not even counting the absence of JSN and Marvin Harrison in Q4)
I think they will be much improved. If we can stay healthy at CB and the returning guys get a lot of work in training camps, we should see a much improved unit. I think by mid season the safety play will be improved even with two new starters, need Williams/Hall and a couple of young DT's to step up.
They should be better next year. Another year in Knowles system should help. Returning both LB's and some good D lineman will make it tough for teams to run on us. The secondary still concerns me. Still a lot of work to do there.
Bingo SS, they gotta get aggressive playing the ball, because they are giving big plays not playing the ball. Might as well be aggressive because playing receivers conservatively hasn’t worked.
I think year 2 will be improved and year 3 will find consistency. The plan is there, hopefully the players are, but the missing ingredient is adaptability. Will the defensive philosophy adapt to its opponent or be able to adapt mid-game if things aren’t working. That is where I want to see improvements.
The front seven should be on par with the 2019 defense. The secondary should develop nicely as they are all very young players. Obviously this is a projection but the defense finally looks like it is coming into silver bullet form after the disaster of the Coombs tenure.
They better be better, because getting your doors blown off on the biggest stages against the best opponents is decidedly not what Day expected in return for his 2 million dollar per season investment. Jim Knowles should be embarrassed... what made him a big deal at Duke and OkSU is not good enough at Ohio State, and his defense cost the Buckeyes a B1G title and a national championship.
Generally speaking, you're right... it tends to be the nature of college football now. Having said that, the Knowles defense getting punched in the throat -- repeatedly -- in the 4th qtr of both the ttun and UGA games is unacceptable. The big plays that Knowles warned everyone to expect came in massive waves all season, but especially when it counted most. The *ichigan game was simply ridiculous... there is no better adjective than that for what we saw on 11/26. As for the CFP, when your 2 million dollar DC has a two TD cushion in the 4th qtr of a playoff semifinal and he still manages to lose the game, well, that just iced the shit cake that Knowles baked in 2022. Ohio State's obscenely paid DC produced a defense that was the primary reason the team failed to achieve any of its goals, and that won't work moving forward, the nature of college football notwithstanding.
Having said that, the Knowles defense getting punched in the throat -- repeatedly -- in the 4th qtr of both the ttun and UGA games is unacceptable
Kmp, as much as people point their fingers at the defense, our offense scored 3 points in the 4th quarter against TTUN and 0 points in the 3rd, and our offense scored 3 points in the 4th quarter against Georgia.
In my opinion, our defense generated enough stops against Georgia to put us in a position to win the game and our offense did not come through in the 4th quarter.
At the end of the day, when two juggernauts meet, one of them has to lose. IMO it is just tough to criticize what happened too much. UGA's D was number one and UGA's O was top ten in most metrics. Perhaps the offense should have scored in the 4th, but they were out JSN, MHJr, Stover, Henderson, and Williams. That they still almost clinched a championship without those players in the 4th has me excited for next season's potential. Honestly reminds me of 2019 in terms of returning production. Need some new OL starters and a QB, but otherwise a fine tuned machine ready to roll.
I'll be watching your defense carefully. Honestly, I don't completely understand how your defense bombed so badly against Michigan. However, I think your main point is valid and important. Specifically, when you get to the top 5 or 10 teams, I suspect that most of them are going to score against our defense. It becomes important for your own offense to score more than the defense gives up. That's obvious. But I think you really want an offense that can score 45 points, and a defense that can keep the score to around 40. If you do that, you should be good.
Obviously, you're not going to be able to tell a whole lot in your September games. But you have a 5 game run (ND, Maryland, Purdue, PSU, and possibly Wisconsin) which you should win, but which "might" give clues to the Michigan game and the post-season.
This is an intelligent take. Look at the playoff teams and the scores. Ga. held TCU down, but all other scores by all four teams were over 40. No defense is going to shut down modern playoff offenses. Now, that does not mean it is OK to miss tackles, fall down, blow an assignment, etc. I think these types of mistakes will be improved upon greatly. Having said that, even with defenses doing their job and having talent (which we have). we are still not going to shut down the top offenses.
One post above questioned our talent and claimed we have no playmakers. That is ridiculous. JTT is very talented and can have a super year next year. Hall is very talented especially if healthy. Our linebackers are very talented and Hicks was just a frosh. He could get off next year. Then there is Sonny Styles, whom we have yet to see. We have talent. They have to know their assignments and play team defense. Not sure if we will be back to silver bullet level next year, but do think we will be improved.
JTT had one great game. Even including PSU, he had 28 tackles and 3.5 sacks. Outside of PSU he was pretty average (1.5 sacks in 12 games). Sacks are not everything, but there were several games that he had little to no impact at all.
He was only a second year player and has some potential, but he is not a star or difference maker yet (outside of one game). And he is probably the first guy you point to on our D with elite potential, the rest are even less potential stars.
And that is my point. Right now, who is our best player on D? Tommy? He is a good college player in the traditional MLB role. Who else? Any first rounders? Anyone opponents have to game plan against? Because I see no one. Its a bunch of solid or average guys out there. And not average for all college football, don’t give me that bs. Very average for starters on a team who wants to compete for major conference and national titles. No stars.
This is your subjective take. No more or less valid than mine. Our D did fine last year until we faced two playoff level offenses at the end. Offenses by the way, that no college D is going to shut down. That was with many second-year players in a first year system. You could be right. Or, JT could be Chase Young next year. Look at Chase Young's second year. He had flashes, like JTT, but was not worldly. College kids develop. One thing to ask is who on next yr's D is draft worthy? JTT, Hall, Hicks (eventually), Hamilton, Styles (eventually), Burk? (he was at the start of last year before he was put in a new system). If you are correct, no one on next year's D will be drafted in the first three rounds. I do not think it will work out that way. But we will see. One of us will have to eat our words.
PS. I have to agree we did not have any player preform at a super star level last year. I am speculating about next year. Subjective I admit. But two things:
First: These are college kids. They develop. We had several second and even first year kids last year that could break out big time in their second and third years. Hicks, Styles, JTT, they are all 5 stars. They could end up playing like ones.
Second: Defense is a TEAM sport. Not necessary to have superstars to have a great D. Ok. St. proved that in a conference that is more offensive minded than the iBg. If what we end up with is group of excellent and above average players who have perfected their roles in a proven system, we will have a very good D. As I said earlier, I expect improvement, but not Silver Bullet improvement.
JT had one elite game and was good, not elite, rest of the year. Sawyer has done nothing to be called elite. Hall certainly seemed like he was headed that direction but was a non factor after the bye week for whatever reason. Tyleik seems good for one big play a game, but lacks the consistency to be on the field more than situationally.
I mean I certainly hope they can all be elite next year but to say any of them are at this point is definitely not "realism". Harrison was probably the best DL this year and he is gone. DL has not been a game changing group for a season or in a big game since 2019 outside of one game against a bad Clemson OL in 2020.
I am hopeful the rotational snaps will be more valuable going to unknown young guys like Curry, Jackson or Abor than they were to JJB etc...but DL being a game wrecking crew would be a welcome change for 2023.
After hearing this argument for the past few weeks, I think it tends to not hold as much water based on previous results:
In 2020 we held a prolific Clemson offense to 28 points. Georgia held Michigan to 11 last year, and then held Alabama to 18. You can find good defensive performances all over past CFPs. I think you saw two of the best offenses in the country go toe-to-toe with OSU and Georgia, but the argument that giving up 40+ in the CFP is the new norm for defenses, doesn't hold water in my book.
It is all about matchups. Ohio State front seven in 2020 was great against a terrible Clemson OL, covering up some of the secondary issues. UGA's strengths targetted Michigan's weaknesses, and Alabama's strength (Jameson Williams) was missing against that UGA Ds only weakness (passing down the middle of the field + deep threat WR).
On the other hand, in 2022 Ohio State's biggest strength went up against the UGA Ds biggest weakness, and the UGA's Offense lined up well against the Ohio State defense with the secondary unable to give the DL enough time to get in Bennett's head.
That Michigan vs TCU game is an anomaly imo, as Michigan had multiple critical turnovers on drives that were almost certainly going to be TDs, and TCU capitalized repeatedly. Those turnovers could have honestly been a 28 point swing (14 points gone from TCU and given directly to Michigan.
I certainly agree when it comes to the Michigan game but it's hard to be too harsh on the D when it comes to the playoff. Should UGA fans be screaming to fire their DC because they gave up 41 points to us? Should Michigan fans be doing the same since they gave up 37 offensive points to TCU? Giving up points is going to be the nature of the game when you are in the playoff because you are most likely playing an elite team. The defense absolutely was improved massively since the 2021 season and thats all we could have asked for. It was never going to be a dominant silver bullet defense in year one. Next year it could be though.
It's important to have perspective in college football so you have a realistic expectation. If not, those fans will either be looked at as a clown or a troll very similar to you.
We may be Ohio State, but brother, football has changed. In these big games, you aren’t gonna see too many 10-7 scores. But with you, you’d turn around and then complain about the offense.
What questions are there? I know they didn't play well against top teir competition but the corners are going to be another year better. Remember this is college football where young players develop. They are not finished products. We do lose two safeties but everyone should feel confident in the young guys we have coming up (Styles, Stokes, Kourt, and the transfer guy).
“The corners will be another year better”. You can’t count on that…you can hope. Every time I see well “we have most of our secondary coming back”…that doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy. They stunk. Just because they are coming back doesn’t mean they will automatically be that much better.
Those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon.
We need some defensive back recruits to jump in and make some improvements on the existing or past starters. If we don’t fix that it doesn’t matter how good our defensive line or offense is.
Knowles' system of adding confusion to the offense by disguising the defense is great. However, at some point, if you are going to have three safeties on the field, maybe keep one of them back in pass coverage sometimes? It's great stopping the other teams with tackles for losses, but it really doesn't matter if we are going to keep giving up long easy touchdown passes.
Also, if you are playing safeties on the field and just using them as linebackers, all you are doing is playing three undersized linebackers.
Big AMEN to this. If the guys aren’t schematically or athletically ready to keep explosive plays to 20 yards and not 50+ yards TDs… then DON’T put them in the position to fail like that.
Notre Dame literally could not figure out our defense , I know Knowles is this off-seasons punching bag but lets not sit here & lie like his blitz packages didnt have QBs absolutely confused
Burke and Hancock will be in year 3, and Ja'Had Carter should make an impact. J'aire Brown could also make a splash, he has impressed in limited action. A lot of unknowns but it wouldn't surprise me if the secondary took a step forward, as long as health concerns aren't an issue. In the past, a lot of progress has been made by players who just needed more time to develop.
I imagine Knowles will spend a lot of time and focus on the secondary, as it became abundantly clear that this was the area where the most improvement was needed. Knowles, Eliano and Walton have their work cut out, for sure.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
Even if they do improve significantly (not a given especially with Burke's regression last year) there is no depth at corner. I assure you corner is a position where guys always get banged up.
Secondary obviously remains the concern, but if the CBs and take a marginal step forward or one of the freshman makes a splash, I think it could be special. Curry, Hicks, and Styles coming into their own is going to add another level.
CB looks like total ass to be honest. Those guys were straight garbage last year. Made bum McCarthy look like a stud. They lost guys and added pretty much no one.
We have two CBs coming in with the 2023 class (Calvin Simpson-Hunt and Jermaine Mathews) who are much more suited to play in Knowles's defense so to say they're not adding anyone is simply untrue (though how much those guys will play next year as true freshmen is up for debate). We've lost two pieces from the CB room thus far. Cam Brown (who was okay but never great during his time here) and JK Johnson (who wasn't panning out and didn't seem to be a fit for this scheme). Obviously the CB room is nowhere near where it needs to be yet though.
Young corners are supposed to suck. That's why 2015-2019 BIA never started underclassmen. 2022 was a result of 3 cycles worth of recruiting failure. Now that Hancock is more experienced (barely) and Burke is in year 2 of the Knowles defense, they should be much better as juniors. Okudah, Ward, Conely, and Arnette all sucked until their last year and Lattimore was fragile until his junior year. CB was a position that never lacked talent, it lacked depth and experience. Time and competent coaching can fix both and the CBs should have both this season.
They were also banged up most of the season. Healthy and another offseason in the program should help. Let’s see how things progress during spring practices and the lead up to next Portal. If the coaches are active, then we know where we’re at.
36-24-36? Ha ha, only if she's 5'3"
I’m not sure what time it is, but Xichigan still sucks
I'm cautiously optimistic. I think with Eich and Chambers returning and a lot of experience coming back on the D-line, the front seven should be stout. On paper, the D-line is one of the most talented in the country. They need to ball out in order for the team to accomplish its goals.
The secondary is where the biggest questions are, but if we are honest a few mistakes by individual players cost the whole team BIG time. Hoping for better execution and for some leaders to emerge back there. Maybe Ja'Had Carter brings a little spice to the table. He seems to have some dog in him, and we need guys like that in the secondary.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
If they're not better and still have all of the same issues they had this season (giving up big plays and Knowles being ultra-cavalier about his scheme giving up big plays) Knowles needs to be gone after next season. It's earn your paycheck time for him. We NEED to see improvement on the defensive side of the ball next year.
If we just look at the TTUN and UGa games...how many of those big plays that killed us came from: 1) Players didn't know the defensive scheme; 2) We didn't have the kind of players Knowles needs for his scheme? I'm hard-pressed to say it was very many at all.
So, I throw the "another year to learn the system" argument out the window.
Secondly, I'm not sure Knowles has ever been a top-tier recruiter. So, "getting his players" is a hard sell too as far as I'm concerned.
On top of that, I'd go so far as to day the opposite as the OP. In my eyes, a lot of the pieces of our Defense are missing or still suspect at best.
LBs are fine (assuming health). However, every other position has at least some question marks. For example, we know JT is good at DE and we know of potential (a few flashes) for the other bookend...but nothing we can say "yeah, that piece is back and we know are good to go." The same is true of every other Defensive position group, especially the secondary.
So, unless the OP is defining "special" as "statistically good against weaker competition, but gets lit up against the top teams when it counts," I have to press X to doubt. And I hope Knowles and Co. prove me wrong.
Our defense has sucked ass for three years. Obviously the first two were not with Knowles, but this year our D gave up a ton of big plays to even marginal competition, and got absolutely worked by the two high-talent teams we played.
I have high hopes for next year's defense, but we had plenty of talent on the field this year. I'm in "I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it" mode until they prove themselves on the field.
I suggest that last year was a year of adjustment for everyone on D. Year 2 should be better IMO. I trust Eliano, who helped make Gardner a first round pick, and Walton, who Jalen Ramsey called the best coach he ever had, to remake the secondary. They know who they have now and have skill to get the players where they need to be.
I honestly have a ton of questions about this D going into next season, and it starts at the top with Knowles, he has to have a better understanding of the game and his personnel on the field, I think sometimes he out thinks himself, there was no reason to be playing zero coverage with a safety on a WR in the semifinals, he has to get better at that, the d-line I don’t see anyone who can consistently get to the quarterback yeah JT had moments where he flashed but we need some consistency there of someone who you know on big passing downs will have pressure, I’m not 100 percent confident we have someone, Hall and Williams get a lot of publicity but there again they lack consistency, the LB’s will probably be the best position group on the defense but hopefully no one transfers cause we don’t know what we have behind the top 3, the defensive backfield is a complete mess, we have way to many guys who want to make business decisions and not make a tackle when it is needed, I would like to see 1 top flight CB from the portal brought in, we will have to see, I hope there is some strides made, for right now hopefully everyone in the secondary can stay healthy and have a complete off season to get reps and get better.
Our DLs/LBs were good in 2022 and could be even better in 2023. An elite front 6 can help overcome some of the deficiencies in the secondary, but there will be moments when the secondary has to hold its own and make a play. OSU's defense will go as far as our secondary takes us.
Here’s what I think is hard for me and other Buckeye fans. We aren’t expecting that every year we have Lattimore and Ward back there.
We expect (1) to have superior athletes than almost everyone we play (2) we expect a disciplined defense (know your job, do your job.
There is no reason in the world why Iowa or Northwestern or Cincinnati should have superior DB play year in and year out to OSU. They take two and three star guys and coach them up and coach while understanding their limitations. I’m still waiting to see us do that. Tressel’s teams did that consistently. Cooper’s teams did, too. Urban’s teams had some of the best corners to play here, but at times the lack of coaching and disciple burned us (2013 & 2018).
Outside of 2019… all of Day’s defensive team DBs have looked undisciplined and confused. Are we mid-identifying talent? It’s not like we are recruiting guys who are anything but high 4 star players at corner.
I don’t know what it takes to fix this, or if there is some weird correlation where having a fantastic offense somehow makes your defense inferior. It is, however, a real trend.
It won’t be special if you can’t play better pass defense than this year’s team considering you’re playing 5 secondary guys - basically a nickle defense. I personally look at Knowles defense as a Big 12 defense with better talent…..
Need to get back to playing more 3 lb’s than 3 safeties.
Playing 3 lbs allows your 2 safeties to play deep. We typically had McCalister man up on the slot and to help in run support we had Ransom cheating up because we only had 2 LB’s - just look at the 2 long runs Ttun had in the second half - watch them block/scheme the “2” lb’s right out of the play and the safety had to make the play because there is no lb on that side of the field. All ya really have to do is look at Iowa’s defense.....I would rather have us play Iowa’s defense with better recruited players then Duke/Oklahoma St.’s.....just sayin
No team in modern football plays with 3 LBs consistently, I really want some of you to watch games and actually formulate an educated opinion, do you know how many teams played 3 LBs atleast 50% of snaps in the NFL ? Zero , in a football game where teams are running 4 & 5 WR sets … why the hell would anyone with common sense stupidly put a 3rd LB in the game consistently? And FYI …. You can sit with two safeties in deep WITHOUT a 3rd LB …. OSU does it fairly often with Mccalister & Ransom sitting in the deep zones of the field
Watching several other teams really does help. Most would be surprised to find out the 3-4 Alabama runs is only that a small part of the game. Half the time it’s their version of a 4-2-5 and that’s just one case.
It's a personnel problem of not being that good. Styles is 6'4 220 and is as athletically gifted as anyone in college football. Carter is 6'1 200 plus. Both bigger faster and stronger than their predecessors. When you have Styles/Ransom/Carter as your starting safeties the scheme will most likely stand up better than with Hickman/Ransom/McCallister. Also I think we need to play a third CB on obvious passing downs. 4-2-5/3-3-5 works if the right players are there. You can't defend a spread offense with a base 4-3/3-4 look.
Per Jim Knowles his defenses specialty is stopped spread RPO’s. Which makes sense because he came to fame bringing an elite defense to the spread wide open Big 12. Knowles’ system shouldn’t change.
3 LB's fixing our defense is ludicrous. Adding a 3rd corner or nickleback would be the correct answer. We needed more coverage. Safeties that's strong suit is speed and pass coverage and not playing in the box.
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
I think there's a disconnect .I mentioned a mix of the 2 schemes so CJ could be the 3RD LB (who said pull Eich and Steele?) Styles would be in the 3 Safety look.
Hicks is competing with Simon for more snaps in the 3 lb’er looks. Yes they actually play 3 at times. He could see some more time in the chambers role as well. Styles will likely be in a similar situation at safety if not a full time starter with a spot opening up.
Eich and Steele stay on the field. But when a team is running 3,4, and 5 wr's. You can't have Latham Ransom and Tanner McAllister and Ronnie Hickman covering receivers that are known 4.3 - 4.4 guys. They can cover TE's and RB's and slower possession WR's. But you can't consistently put 2 big mismatches out there for teams to exploit. I mean hell man Xichigan ran a freshman TE out there and our guys were getting burnt. Josh Perry did a phenomenal job of breaking this down. Ransom was beat at the snap vs Georgia because he wasn't up at the line getting hands on the speedy WR. These strong safeties don't have the hip flexibility or speed to keep up with today's top notch athletes at wr. So either jam at the line or get 20 yards deep or get their ass on the bench and put a CB/NB who can run better. And notice these problems only appeared when the talent level could buy time for their QB. PSU, Maryland, Ttun, Georgia
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
This the ebb and flow of buckeye football. Generational offense with a shit stain defense.
Meat grinder defense with gets shut out in a bowl game offense.
If....by some type of grace from god.....both sides of the ball are strong....the team will be decimated by injury or the best player on the team will go down.
These are the rules of Ohio State Football. Good/Bad offense or defense. Season ender for best player. Or as a cherry on top get super fucked by a terrible call in the most critical moment of the season.
I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.
No offense but when Knowles was hired last year, some poster said the 2022 defense was going to be special. A second similar post was made after Knowles said he wanted Day to tell the press that he wanted a TOP 5 defense. I just hope the defense is improved from last year. The defense currently is a long ways away from being special.
We were still a top 10 defense in "stop rate". Top-25 in points per game. And top 10 in other metrics that mattered like 3rd down %. We have 1 weakness. And if we can't fix it with Jimmy's and Joe's, it needs to be masked with X's and O's.
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
We were not against anyone with a pulse who could throw the football....
the 4 best offensive teams we played scored 148pts - 37/gm.... you can get stats that are a little misleading when you play poor offenses like Iowa and Wisconsin etc. The year before (2021) the top 4 scored 153....
they can learn the system but you still need talent to carry it out and the Buckeyes have holes to fill on defense and some of the returnees needs to improve a lot.
People need to chill with 1st year expectations! Knowles improved Ohio State’s defense quite a bit in year one. The biggest change comes between years 1 and 2. Just look at what he did at Oklahoma State. His first year they were ranked in the 100’s in total defense. By his 4th year they were the number 1 defense in the country. Just look at the numbers below.
2020 - 402 yards 26 ppg
2021 - 367 yards 21 ppg
2022 - 304 yards 19 ppg
Knowles improved this defense. And I’d be will to bet that next year will be in the 280 yards and 15 ppg range. That would easily give Ohio State a top 5 defense. HUGE improvement from 83rd!
I'm taking a wait and see attitude. The last three games, Knowles defensed was shredded and the last two with wide open receivers was devastating. This scheme or strategy has to be re-evaluated. It's not okay if you hold a team on some series, but then they score ridiculously easy TD's on others. I'm not saying Knowles is on the hot seat, yet, but fans will be a little more wary if these breakdowns continue.
When Al McGuire coached basketball at Marquette University back in the 1970's, he was asked about his philosophy on defensive stats. To paraphrase, he said that 'the only stats that really matter are those accumulated from your three best opponents' on the schedule. Otherwise, stats are misleading. .
As for giving up BIG plays, it's sickening to watch the Buckeyes throw away a 1/2 or full quarter of good work on one play. Those kinds of momentum-swinging plays almost always come back to haunt the team that gives them up, regardless of the sport.
Until the Buckeye defense can stand tall against the best teams on the schedule, the ranking of our Buckeye defense means nothing to me. I remain optimistic the Buckeye defense will be better next fall, but like most older fans will 'believe it when I see it.' Go Bucks!
Something else is meaningless; How well we do against our own , spread offense in spring and early fall scrimmages. There begins to grow a false evaluation of our DL against good, tough running teams because we see nothing like that from our own offense. However, that's not to say Knowles wasn't worried about that, hence committing too many DBS to stop SCUM's running game. SCUM's big running plays were a direct result...of losing the LOS inside and hampering our LBs at the point of attack. Fix that with good enough personnel...not schemes. Also that 4-2-5 became a 4-3-4 without adequately talented personnel for blanket coverage skills. DES and LBS are equipped with good personnel. All else needs to be upgraded to do those jobs. Where do those upgrades come from?? 10 fingers....13 holes in the damn dam.
I'm not sure how "special" it will be, but the improvement of the defense from 2021's dumpster fire was very apparent, and I believe it will continue to improve in Knowles' second year (certainly still has a lot of room to do so). It was an entirely knew defensive staff with the exception of LJ.
Knowles has made some progress. I would rank the following seasons defenses as follows:
2020 - Awful
2021 - Bad
2022 - Not good enough
I'm hopeful 2023 puts us at least in the "good enough" category somewhere between the Bama 2020 defense and LSU's 2019 defense. If the secondary shows any improvement at all, it should get us there to Natty ready with the expected offense.
I don't know what the stats would show, but what I recall is the 2020 defense being terrible at defending the pass but decent against the run. The secondary looked all out of sorts. It seemed like a worse version of the 2022 defense in some ways.
The 2021 defense was pretty bad all the way around but REALLY struggled against the run, at least when facing respectable teams (Oregon, TTUN). Coombs was in way over his head and it really cost the team big time.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
I think the shortened season skews the stats somewhat but 2020 was worse in both scoring D (26 points a game vs 23) and total D 407 yards a game vs. 367 in 2021.
Interesting. Think you’re right about the shortened season skewing the stats. It’s not just the losses to Oregon and TTUN and what not, but that 2021 defense just felt so much more demoralizing to watch every week than 2020’s (which was very shit in its own right).
The 2020 team also played against two playoff teams, including a great offense that Bama had, and played no out of conference games to pad those stats, and only 8 games total. Cannot look at the stats to compare 2020 to other years.
I agree with this. Every word. The big plays were immensely costly and overshadowed a lot of really good stuff, unfortunately. I get it- you can't make McCarthy and TTUN's WR's look like world-beaters or give Georgia 14+ easy points, but I'd take the 2022 defense over the 2020 or 2021 ANY DAY. If the front seven performs at a similar level and the secondary is consistently competent, the D at least shouldn't cost us any big games. And that's all the defense needs to do at this point.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
I like Knowles, if the offense would have done it’s part in the tun game defense wouldn’t have mattered, same for the playoff game. The Offense did well in the Georgia game, but it could have been better
Bama gave up 52 to Tennessee. Elite O beats elite D now. We have the best O in the country, and Knowles will bring an elite D. Even still, we will give up 30+ in the Natty more likely than not. It's the nature of the game now.
"Our kind of families win a few more football games than others." Coach Hayes
I like a DL featuring more JT, more Sawyer, hopefully we see the emergence of guys like Jackson and Abor... That alone makes the defense very intriguing.
The Excellence of Execution, the Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be!
The thing with the defensive line that I think will be a big upgrade is getting/keeping Mitchell Melton healthy so that he can take that Jack role on and allow Sawyer to go back to being a hand in the dirt DE where he is better suited.
Hard to have much confidence heading into next year honestly...take it layer by layer
DL - JT had one great game and was otherwise solid, Hall started great then was a non-factor down the stretch, Tyliek has flashed but been mainly inconsistent and Sawyer has basically done nothing. DL has not been a game changing unit since Chase left.
LB - Best year for LBs since 2019, would love to see some Hicks action but no concerns here with Chambers/Eich coming back.
CB - Burke has been good and terrible at times, Hancock has done nothing but create rumors of being good and no one else has played a meaningful snap. Also, we still have no depth after four years of not having depth.
S - Unless Stokes is the guy we still have no deep coverage safety, Carter will hopefully be an athletic upgrade on McCallister. Styles has all the tools but have to remember he should only be a freshman, Ransom was great until the light was brightest...glad he is back bc that experience should help. Kourt is kinda like Hancock, all hype injured team but don't see him helping in coverage he is more of a box guy.
Scheme - Frankly a hard TBD. Knowles certainly needs to read the game better and adjust in-game based on what he is seeing. I mean blitzing McCarthy was insane when he couldn't throw from the pocket and they weren't running well against our base defense. Cover 1 up 14 with 8 mins left was borderline negligent
Hopeful that some guys take a leap and Knowles improves as well but I am expecting a lot of the same next year, so I think Day came to the correct conclusion heading into UGA game, gonna need to score at least mid 40s to win any big game.
Another issue is will Knowles & Co. play true Freshmen at CB if they'rethe best candidates. Simpson-Hunt and Matthews could very well prove to be the best of the bunch,but will they start or play meaningful snaps. As we all know,coaches can be stubborn. Burke played as a Frosh but that was not under Knowles.
Knowles kept rolling McAllister out onto the field week after week and he was at his very best an average player. We'll see.
Im old enough to remember Jyaire Brown starting a game and playing 197 snaps for the year. So no, I don’t think Knowles has an issue with starting/playing a true freshman if he’s better.
Ok? I hope, but if any indication was the last 3 games of the year + PSU... I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't understand why we would spend the money for a DC who's system takes 2-3 years to develop instead of hiring a DC like Michigan's who has instant results?
ttun’s changes on defense were just different coaches, not a schematic change. That probably helped. Every team has a goal of winning the NC. I’d say we came closer to accomplishing that than ttun did unless you think a loss to the underdog horned frogs was impressive.
Knowles will stay awhile, perhaps until retirement, and once his system is totally in place it has produced dominant results with inferior talent. In year one, imo, the defense was at least "good enough." They were in prime position to beat the CFB boogeyman, they just were not the team that came out on top . . . but they easily could have been. With almost all production returning, I am pretty optimistic about the future of the defense.
It's not that his system needs 2-3 years to develop. It appeared that way in his other stops because those other places didn't have the talent. Talent takes 2-3 years to get in the door and ready to play. We have talent here and we did see immediate results in year one. Regardless of how we played against top competition this defense was immensely better than 2021. The problem is the talent needs to continue to develop. Remember most of our defensive players were developed by Coombs staff so think of every player on the defense as a year or two younger. It's all about development. Next season will be much better.
Based on Knowles’ history the most logical conclusion is we will see a slight upgrade in the 2023 season and the defense will take huge strides in the 2024 season and beyond.
Every team is different. It's not just about the coach. We could potentially lose a lot of pieces after next season. I'm expecting a slight fall back in 2024.
I fully expect the defense to play well against inferior teams. . But can they make stops and get off the field against Michigan? Can they do it in the biggest game? I have serious doubts. Harbaugh will scheme Day/Knowles up once again. Have them falling over their feet.
I also have serious doubts but I don't think Harbaugh will out-scheme anyone. To be honest, I don't think he out-schemed TOSU the last 2 years. In 2021 it appeared to be a simple gameplan of running the ball down TOSU's throats- we could not win the line of scrimmage. This year we decided to shave off the top to stop the run. UM didn't play chess to have our defenders instantly lose the ability to tackle and be within the vicinity of a receiver. For some reason when I hear 'scheme' related to football I think of brilliance and or creativity to which I believe he (Harbaugh) didn't/doesn't possess. Maybe I'm being too petty
By many measures, Knowles’ Oklahoma State defense has been one of the best in the country in 2021, ranking first in the nation in sacks (54) and tackles for loss (113), second in opposing third down percentage (25.8%), third in yards allowed per game (278.4), fourth in yards allowed per play (4.42), sixth in yards allowed per rushing attempt (2.74), eighth in points allowed per game (16.8) and 14th in yards allowed per passing attempt (6.26).
This is from Dan Hopes “5 Things to Know” article when Knowles was first hired.
It is important to keep this in mind when we discuss Knowles.
His tenure got off to a shaky start in 2018, when Oklahoma State ranked 112th in total defense (452.5 yards allowed per game) and 97th in scoring defense (32.5 points allowed per game). But the Cowboys improved to 82nd in total defense (412.3) and 61st in scoring defense (26.8) in 2019 and 44th in total defense (379.0) and 34th in scoring defense (23.5) in 2020 before becoming a top-10 defense this year.
His defense didn’t get off to a good start @ Oklahoma State either, but they remained patient as should we. Even if Ohio State only has slight improvements in 2023.
I would think it would be better with experience. It was already better than it was before honestly. It was not perfect but it performed much better than I was hoping. They could have had one more stop against Georgia, but in losses it was easily a problem for both sides of the ball.
I thoroughly appreciate the realism here and agree. Another year of coaching and in the weight room can't hurt this defense. With pretty much the entire DL and LBs returning, this should also support our troublesome secondary. An additional year will only help Knowles settle in and progress... you'd think anyhow, haha... right?
I watched highlights from the 2016 Buckeyes defense - that secondary was insane. Hooker, Lattimore, Conley, young Denzel Ward... they put so much pressure on offenses. Hooker's highlight reel is unbelievable - I hope Stokes can turn into that type of playmaker at deep safety. I believe the CBs will be better this year, more hungry and anxious to improve. I think if we can see Sonny Styles develop and a defensive QB like Lathan Ransom, the story of the 2023 Buckeyes might be how a dominant, playmaking defense carried the team while a young QB developed into a Heisman finalist. That is my hope, which as a fan is all I should have going into every spring. Go Bucks!
That was one of my favorite seasons to watch despite the dreadful offense and CFP game. That was the best secondary I've seen in my 20 years of watching the bucks. 4 first round picks who are all still balling in the NFL (besides Conley) is truly insane. The remaining defense was quite good too. I always love a team with great defense. As much as the we hate the Dawgs right now I can appreciate their game. Anyone can scheme and recruit track stars to play 7 on 7 ball, but it takes a true team approach to make a great defense. Obviously elite athletes go a long way but they still need to play as a unit. That's why the 2002, 2005, 2016 and 2019 OSU teams are my favorite. What's common? All had elite defenses.
I’m gonna wait and see like some others.
Im not going to get a “chubby” because we hold Y-Town, Rutgers and Indiana to single digits…judged on ND, PSU, Whiskey and tsun…then we can talk.
Those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon.
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It starts up front by a defensive line that can pressure enough to put our DBs in an advantageous spot. Would be huge if one of those second year ends can be a force. And if Hall can be what he was first half of the year. We will definitely be better on defense, the question is how much better.
BINGO! it’s easy to shine a light on the bad plays in the secondary but the missing ingredient is a pass rush that gets there in time. A split second is the difference between a big sack and a big pass.
Also there's a big difference having elite shut down corners like Denzel Ward, Okudah, Lattimore and etc than what we've seen in the last 3 seasons. In modern football, it starts with an elite pass rush and then top flight corners. I think Denzel Burke is a good zone coverage corner but he definitely struggles against better receivers in man coverage.
It’s the chicken egg argument of football. The most agreed upon thought tho is that you can’t give great qb’s time to pick you apart. Even Stetson can do that and his ceiling is limited.
It's not the pass rush's fault when a defensive back falls down or when a corner misses an easy tackle on a short pass which turns into a touchdown like against Michigan. Both Michigan and Georgia have elite offensive lines and I thought we were getting pretty good pressure on both. The secondary is soft and has been since 2019. Not many guys back there willing to tackle, especially at corner.
Pass rush and coverage are things you need every play. A guy falling down or missing a tackle are random things that fans won’t ever forget but it’s not something that you should worry about every time the ball is snapped. Pointing out random plays won’t exactly fix much in the future. However, a great pass rush will start helping game one.
Not that Stetson Bennet was bad, kinda Brock Purdy like as he got the ball where it needed to go, but pressure causes a average QB to become less than average.
"I love football. I think it is most wonderful game in world and I despise to lose."
Woody Hayes 1913 - 1987
The one thing that I thought Bennett was very good at was handling pressure when blitzed. It didn’t appear that Georgia’s offensive line gave Stetson much time to get a good look at options, but he could usually find someone open. Our offensive line gave CJ all kinds of time to find a receiver.
I think it goes both ways. If the ball comes out too fast the DL has no shot. Pressure can make a ball come out when a QB is not ready and this last year they did that fairly well I thought. I saw a stat where they were first in the league with pressures off four man fronts.
We often look to the DL, but a big deal is how the secondary confuses things or makes things merky. The QB having to hold onto the ball another second is a big deal.
When we knock OSUs DL, even in years where they are not as good the opposing QBs are getting it out fast and that is on the secondary as much as the line itself. With Coombs for instance it would not have mattered if a Young and Bosa were on that line. The QBs were getting the ball out so fast because they knew what the coverage was and that it would not change.
You need both to be good enough. If one is particularly good it helps the other.
I am not convinced that Knowles is not our Don Brown. Blitz and kill bad teams, use the same stupid philosophy against teams that can easily counter it.
Who easily countered his defense?
Why does everyone continue to act like inept DB play was somehow the intention of Knowles?
You don't get it. The ideal Jim Knowles defense has DBs who can't cover and defensive linemen that can't hit the quarterback when it matters. This season went exactly how Knowles wanted! #FireKnowles
Its kind of hard to sack the QB …… WHEN YOUR DAMN CBS CANT COVER , like Jesus , how many times do analyst and sports journalists have to tell you people that OSU doesnt sack the QB much cause the corners cant hold up
When you hear them say it’s a coverage sack, it’s after the qb sat in the pocket for what seemed like an eternity because the blocking held up for the 3-5 seconds they needed to. The d line is hoping to get there quicker than that because it’s hard to cover that long. The rush affects the play before some routes are even halfway ran unless it doesn’t.
But sadly only sacks they got versus UGA were coverage sacks...so don't think either were really playing that well.
You need both to be good enough if not elite. They weren’t
If you have inept DBs you do not call blitzes/coverages that leave those inept DBs without help behind them, so when their foreseeable mistakes occur you give up 15-20 yards, not 70-yard touchdowns.
And if we block better every offensive play should result in. a touchdown. Doesn’t work that way, you design your game plan around your players. You must have stopped watching after week 11.
I expect in year 2 you will see some natural progression. But I also see a lack of top-end talent, playmakers, and stars on D. I see a lot of average guys out there. I do not see any standout unit. And I remain unconvinced that a 4-2-5 is the best base defense. It seemed to confuse our secondary more than the opponent at times, and allowed a huge number of backbreaking big plays.
4-2-5 is arguably the most common defense in CFB besides variations of the 3-3-5 (not the version TCU runs)
Maybe so. But we gave up 87 points in our last two games and the two highest yards per play against games in OSU history in our last two games played. Think about that, the two worst defensive performances in osu history by one metric in our last two games played.
So I remain not convinced Knowles’ scheme is the answer.
Sure, but like I said in another way it goes both ways here. If the coverage makes the QB hesitate than that helps the DL get there. That was the case when Coombs was the DC. The QB could get the ball out so fast. The DL got alot of crap but the DL was getting back there really fast, but the QB was getting the ball out faster because the QB knew where to go and went there right away.
The secondary and DL work off each other. We too often say it is the DL that helps the secondary but it is a two way street situation. They help each other.
I agree with this sentiment but think the DBs were still behind the curve comparatively. To me, any departures from the secondary this season are for the better which I can't say about our DEs. It would be great if both could improve this year.
Einhorn is Brutus?
Have you even bothered to look at the secondary? We have a single returning corner in Burke who hopefully was just having what woody used to call the sophomore slump. The NEXT most experienced corner in the ENTIRE ROOM is Jordan Hancock. The ONLY other corners with ANY experience are Jyaire Brown and Ryan Turner (to a lesser degree) That isn't an issue its STRAIGHT UP HORRIFYING... Last season that room was a walking mash unit with a significantly greater depth one that was already considered thin. If Burke goes down or Hancock you are relying on people with 0 starting experience. Things are so thin that the incoming freshman is going to have to be pressed into duty as active backups. While I am definitely confident about the linebackers we have to find guys that can play on the OL.
There is a REASON and it ISNT just injuries that limited PT by guys like Mike Hall on the DL... If he learns how to play discipline his ceiling is AA-level play but he has yet to prove that he can consistently play his gap assignment I do agree that there is potential but if their are issues with injury in the secondary or guys arent being disciplined it could be a defense that is not very good.
You WIN with people.
WW Hayes
I wouldn't say one of the best ever but if our db's could have stood up this year it would have been a different story this past year.
Denny
I do agree with you … and yet, had we been able to field a team vs Georgia with even a #2 or #3 RB., or a #1 or #2 TE, we would very likely have been the owner of the national championship trophy . ( Not even counting the absence of JSN and Marvin Harrison in Q4)
I think they will be much improved. If we can stay healthy at CB and the returning guys get a lot of work in training camps, we should see a much improved unit. I think by mid season the safety play will be improved even with two new starters, need Williams/Hall and a couple of young DT's to step up.
They should be better next year. Another year in Knowles system should help. Returning both LB's and some good D lineman will make it tough for teams to run on us. The secondary still concerns me. Still a lot of work to do there.
If they don't learn how to turn and look for the ball, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to watch when we're on defense - I'll be too upset
"Year for what?"
Tackling is another big concern. Getting trucked by a QB because you stand straight up and go high at his shoulders is embarrassing.
What happened to the "rugby tackling" philosophy?
Bingo SS, they gotta get aggressive playing the ball, because they are giving big plays not playing the ball. Might as well be aggressive because playing receivers conservatively hasn’t worked.
MICHIGAN STILL SUCKS
I think year 2 will be improved and year 3 will find consistency. The plan is there, hopefully the players are, but the missing ingredient is adaptability. Will the defensive philosophy adapt to its opponent or be able to adapt mid-game if things aren’t working. That is where I want to see improvements.
The front seven should be on par with the 2019 defense. The secondary should develop nicely as they are all very young players. Obviously this is a projection but the defense finally looks like it is coming into silver bullet form after the disaster of the Coombs tenure.
They better be better, because getting your doors blown off on the biggest stages against the best opponents is decidedly not what Day expected in return for his 2 million dollar per season investment. Jim Knowles should be embarrassed... what made him a big deal at Duke and OkSU is not good enough at Ohio State, and his defense cost the Buckeyes a B1G title and a national championship.
When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's
I get your point 10 but every team in that first round gave up over 40 with 2 more than OSU. It's the nature of college football now.
Not just the college game.
All the rules (college and pro) favor the offense, and we're seeing the result on the field.
Generally speaking, you're right... it tends to be the nature of college football now. Having said that, the Knowles defense getting punched in the throat -- repeatedly -- in the 4th qtr of both the ttun and UGA games is unacceptable. The big plays that Knowles warned everyone to expect came in massive waves all season, but especially when it counted most. The *ichigan game was simply ridiculous... there is no better adjective than that for what we saw on 11/26. As for the CFP, when your 2 million dollar DC has a two TD cushion in the 4th qtr of a playoff semifinal and he still manages to lose the game, well, that just iced the shit cake that Knowles baked in 2022. Ohio State's obscenely paid DC produced a defense that was the primary reason the team failed to achieve any of its goals, and that won't work moving forward, the nature of college football notwithstanding.
When I die, sprinkle my ashes over the 70's
Kmp, as much as people point their fingers at the defense, our offense scored 3 points in the 4th quarter against TTUN and 0 points in the 3rd, and our offense scored 3 points in the 4th quarter against Georgia.
In my opinion, our defense generated enough stops against Georgia to put us in a position to win the game and our offense did not come through in the 4th quarter.
I don't know this to be true but the time of possession seemed really bad (for the defense) in the 4th quarter against ttun.
At the end of the day, when two juggernauts meet, one of them has to lose. IMO it is just tough to criticize what happened too much. UGA's D was number one and UGA's O was top ten in most metrics. Perhaps the offense should have scored in the 4th, but they were out JSN, MHJr, Stover, Henderson, and Williams. That they still almost clinched a championship without those players in the 4th has me excited for next season's potential. Honestly reminds me of 2019 in terms of returning production. Need some new OL starters and a QB, but otherwise a fine tuned machine ready to roll.
I'll be watching your defense carefully. Honestly, I don't completely understand how your defense bombed so badly against Michigan. However, I think your main point is valid and important. Specifically, when you get to the top 5 or 10 teams, I suspect that most of them are going to score against our defense. It becomes important for your own offense to score more than the defense gives up. That's obvious. But I think you really want an offense that can score 45 points, and a defense that can keep the score to around 40. If you do that, you should be good.
Obviously, you're not going to be able to tell a whole lot in your September games. But you have a 5 game run (ND, Maryland, Purdue, PSU, and possibly Wisconsin) which you should win, but which "might" give clues to the Michigan game and the post-season.
This is an intelligent take. Look at the playoff teams and the scores. Ga. held TCU down, but all other scores by all four teams were over 40. No defense is going to shut down modern playoff offenses. Now, that does not mean it is OK to miss tackles, fall down, blow an assignment, etc. I think these types of mistakes will be improved upon greatly. Having said that, even with defenses doing their job and having talent (which we have). we are still not going to shut down the top offenses.
One post above questioned our talent and claimed we have no playmakers. That is ridiculous. JTT is very talented and can have a super year next year. Hall is very talented especially if healthy. Our linebackers are very talented and Hicks was just a frosh. He could get off next year. Then there is Sonny Styles, whom we have yet to see. We have talent. They have to know their assignments and play team defense. Not sure if we will be back to silver bullet level next year, but do think we will be improved.
OSUNut
JTT had one great game. Even including PSU, he had 28 tackles and 3.5 sacks. Outside of PSU he was pretty average (1.5 sacks in 12 games). Sacks are not everything, but there were several games that he had little to no impact at all.
He was only a second year player and has some potential, but he is not a star or difference maker yet (outside of one game). And he is probably the first guy you point to on our D with elite potential, the rest are even less potential stars.
And that is my point. Right now, who is our best player on D? Tommy? He is a good college player in the traditional MLB role. Who else? Any first rounders? Anyone opponents have to game plan against? Because I see no one. Its a bunch of solid or average guys out there. And not average for all college football, don’t give me that bs. Very average for starters on a team who wants to compete for major conference and national titles. No stars.
This is your subjective take. No more or less valid than mine. Our D did fine last year until we faced two playoff level offenses at the end. Offenses by the way, that no college D is going to shut down. That was with many second-year players in a first year system. You could be right. Or, JT could be Chase Young next year. Look at Chase Young's second year. He had flashes, like JTT, but was not worldly. College kids develop. One thing to ask is who on next yr's D is draft worthy? JTT, Hall, Hicks (eventually), Hamilton, Styles (eventually), Burk? (he was at the start of last year before he was put in a new system). If you are correct, no one on next year's D will be drafted in the first three rounds. I do not think it will work out that way. But we will see. One of us will have to eat our words.
OSUNut
PS. I have to agree we did not have any player preform at a super star level last year. I am speculating about next year. Subjective I admit. But two things:
First: These are college kids. They develop. We had several second and even first year kids last year that could break out big time in their second and third years. Hicks, Styles, JTT, they are all 5 stars. They could end up playing like ones.
Second: Defense is a TEAM sport. Not necessary to have superstars to have a great D. Ok. St. proved that in a conference that is more offensive minded than the iBg. If what we end up with is group of excellent and above average players who have perfected their roles in a proven system, we will have a very good D. As I said earlier, I expect improvement, but not Silver Bullet improvement.
OSUNut
JTT, Sawyer, Hall, Tyleik all have the potential to be elite. Tommy & Steele both have the potential to be all Americans.
This defense is absolutely loaded with talent
This coming from a "Realist," no less
OSUNut
Let me guess, you thought Stroud and Day sucked too lol
You’re unbelievable.
Yes JTT is elite, Sawyer will be elite, Hall already is elite, and Tyleik will be elite.
Tommy will be a favorite for the Butkus.
I’m sorry this is happening to you.
You misunderstand the meaning of my post. I am agreeing with you. If you read my earlier posts, this should be obvious
OSUNut
PS, no need to get insulting.
OSUNut
Foot in mouth.
I apologize, that’s what I get for commenting before having my coffee.
JT had one elite game and was good, not elite, rest of the year. Sawyer has done nothing to be called elite. Hall certainly seemed like he was headed that direction but was a non factor after the bye week for whatever reason. Tyleik seems good for one big play a game, but lacks the consistency to be on the field more than situationally.
I mean I certainly hope they can all be elite next year but to say any of them are at this point is definitely not "realism". Harrison was probably the best DL this year and he is gone. DL has not been a game changing group for a season or in a big game since 2019 outside of one game against a bad Clemson OL in 2020.
I am hopeful the rotational snaps will be more valuable going to unknown young guys like Curry, Jackson or Abor than they were to JJB etc...but DL being a game wrecking crew would be a welcome change for 2023.
After hearing this argument for the past few weeks, I think it tends to not hold as much water based on previous results:
In 2020 we held a prolific Clemson offense to 28 points. Georgia held Michigan to 11 last year, and then held Alabama to 18. You can find good defensive performances all over past CFPs. I think you saw two of the best offenses in the country go toe-to-toe with OSU and Georgia, but the argument that giving up 40+ in the CFP is the new norm for defenses, doesn't hold water in my book.
It is all about matchups. Ohio State front seven in 2020 was great against a terrible Clemson OL, covering up some of the secondary issues. UGA's strengths targetted Michigan's weaknesses, and Alabama's strength (Jameson Williams) was missing against that UGA Ds only weakness (passing down the middle of the field + deep threat WR).
On the other hand, in 2022 Ohio State's biggest strength went up against the UGA Ds biggest weakness, and the UGA's Offense lined up well against the Ohio State defense with the secondary unable to give the DL enough time to get in Bennett's head.
That Michigan vs TCU game is an anomaly imo, as Michigan had multiple critical turnovers on drives that were almost certainly going to be TDs, and TCU capitalized repeatedly. Those turnovers could have honestly been a 28 point swing (14 points gone from TCU and given directly to Michigan.
I certainly agree when it comes to the Michigan game but it's hard to be too harsh on the D when it comes to the playoff. Should UGA fans be screaming to fire their DC because they gave up 41 points to us? Should Michigan fans be doing the same since they gave up 37 offensive points to TCU? Giving up points is going to be the nature of the game when you are in the playoff because you are most likely playing an elite team. The defense absolutely was improved massively since the 2021 season and thats all we could have asked for. It was never going to be a dominant silver bullet defense in year one. Next year it could be though.
Yep, agree on MI, but ultimately these playoff games are now track meets. Georgia, Bama, MI, Clemson, etc. all giving up 35+ in playoff games.
We’re Ohio State fans. Who gives a shit how many points other teams allowed?
It's important to have perspective in college football so you have a realistic expectation. If not, those fans will either be looked at as a clown or a troll very similar to you.
We may be Ohio State, but brother, football has changed. In these big games, you aren’t gonna see too many 10-7 scores. But with you, you’d turn around and then complain about the offense.
With so many questions in the secondary, I am not as optimistic.
What questions are there? I know they didn't play well against top teir competition but the corners are going to be another year better. Remember this is college football where young players develop. They are not finished products. We do lose two safeties but everyone should feel confident in the young guys we have coming up (Styles, Stokes, Kourt, and the transfer guy).
“The corners will be another year better”. You can’t count on that…you can hope. Every time I see well “we have most of our secondary coming back”…that doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy. They stunk. Just because they are coming back doesn’t mean they will automatically be that much better.
Those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon.
We need some defensive back recruits to jump in and make some improvements on the existing or past starters. If we don’t fix that it doesn’t matter how good our defensive line or offense is.
Knowles' system of adding confusion to the offense by disguising the defense is great. However, at some point, if you are going to have three safeties on the field, maybe keep one of them back in pass coverage sometimes? It's great stopping the other teams with tackles for losses, but it really doesn't matter if we are going to keep giving up long easy touchdown passes.
Also, if you are playing safeties on the field and just using them as linebackers, all you are doing is playing three undersized linebackers.
Big AMEN to this. If the guys aren’t schematically or athletically ready to keep explosive plays to 20 yards and not 50+ yards TDs… then DON’T put them in the position to fail like that.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
I didn’t hear a single opposing coach say they were bothered by confusing looks thrown their way from Knowles’ ‘defense’.
Notre Dame literally could not figure out our defense , I know Knowles is this off-seasons punching bag but lets not sit here & lie like his blitz packages didnt have QBs absolutely confused
Not with this secondary. Front 7 looks nice but the secondary looking real rough.
Burke and Hancock will be in year 3, and Ja'Had Carter should make an impact. J'aire Brown could also make a splash, he has impressed in limited action. A lot of unknowns but it wouldn't surprise me if the secondary took a step forward, as long as health concerns aren't an issue. In the past, a lot of progress has been made by players who just needed more time to develop.
I imagine Knowles will spend a lot of time and focus on the secondary, as it became abundantly clear that this was the area where the most improvement was needed. Knowles, Eliano and Walton have their work cut out, for sure.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
Even if they do improve significantly (not a given especially with Burke's regression last year) there is no depth at corner. I assure you corner is a position where guys always get banged up.
DEs - JT, Sawyer, Curry
DTs - Hall, Williams, Hamilton
LBs - Eichenberg, Chambers, Simon
JACK - Hicks, Sawyer, Powers
CBs - Burke, Hancock, Brown, Simpson-Hunt
SAFs - Ransom, Styles, Carter, Martinez
Secondary obviously remains the concern, but if the CBs and take a marginal step forward or one of the freshman makes a splash, I think it could be special. Curry, Hicks, and Styles coming into their own is going to add another level.
Because I couldn't go for 3.
CB looks like total ass to be honest. Those guys were straight garbage last year. Made bum McCarthy look like a stud. They lost guys and added pretty much no one.
Yep, just a bunch of ‘names’ getting people pumped up. Names mean NOTHING. Styles could suck, we just don’t know, yet.
Styles could also be incredible, we just don't know yet. It seems like you're simply choosing pessimism.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
Yep, he could be.
We have two CBs coming in with the 2023 class (Calvin Simpson-Hunt and Jermaine Mathews) who are much more suited to play in Knowles's defense so to say they're not adding anyone is simply untrue (though how much those guys will play next year as true freshmen is up for debate). We've lost two pieces from the CB room thus far. Cam Brown (who was okay but never great during his time here) and JK Johnson (who wasn't panning out and didn't seem to be a fit for this scheme). Obviously the CB room is nowhere near where it needs to be yet though.
11 Strong.
As the season went on, the corner backs were far less of a problem, and safety is being in the wrong role
Young corners are supposed to suck. That's why 2015-2019 BIA never started underclassmen. 2022 was a result of 3 cycles worth of recruiting failure. Now that Hancock is more experienced (barely) and Burke is in year 2 of the Knowles defense, they should be much better as juniors. Okudah, Ward, Conely, and Arnette all sucked until their last year and Lattimore was fragile until his junior year. CB was a position that never lacked talent, it lacked depth and experience. Time and competent coaching can fix both and the CBs should have both this season.
They were also banged up most of the season. Healthy and another offseason in the program should help. Let’s see how things progress during spring practices and the lead up to next Portal. If the coaches are active, then we know where we’re at.
36-24-36? Ha ha, only if she's 5'3"
I’m not sure what time it is, but Xichigan still sucks
I'm cautiously optimistic. I think with Eich and Chambers returning and a lot of experience coming back on the D-line, the front seven should be stout. On paper, the D-line is one of the most talented in the country. They need to ball out in order for the team to accomplish its goals.
The secondary is where the biggest questions are, but if we are honest a few mistakes by individual players cost the whole team BIG time. Hoping for better execution and for some leaders to emerge back there. Maybe Ja'Had Carter brings a little spice to the table. He seems to have some dog in him, and we need guys like that in the secondary.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
when i first saw this forum topic, i thought it might be an op/ed by mr (chunk-plays-are-ok) defense himself. lol.
klusewski
I am firmly in the "prove it" camp until Knowles and the D shows otherwise. I'm tired of defensive failures costing us championships.
We can't stop here; this is bat country...
If they're not better and still have all of the same issues they had this season (giving up big plays and Knowles being ultra-cavalier about his scheme giving up big plays) Knowles needs to be gone after next season. It's earn your paycheck time for him. We NEED to see improvement on the defensive side of the ball next year.
11 Strong.
If we just look at the TTUN and UGa games...how many of those big plays that killed us came from: 1) Players didn't know the defensive scheme; 2) We didn't have the kind of players Knowles needs for his scheme? I'm hard-pressed to say it was very many at all.
So, I throw the "another year to learn the system" argument out the window.
Secondly, I'm not sure Knowles has ever been a top-tier recruiter. So, "getting his players" is a hard sell too as far as I'm concerned.
On top of that, I'd go so far as to day the opposite as the OP. In my eyes, a lot of the pieces of our Defense are missing or still suspect at best.
LBs are fine (assuming health). However, every other position has at least some question marks. For example, we know JT is good at DE and we know of potential (a few flashes) for the other bookend...but nothing we can say "yeah, that piece is back and we know are good to go." The same is true of every other Defensive position group, especially the secondary.
So, unless the OP is defining "special" as "statistically good against weaker competition, but gets lit up against the top teams when it counts," I have to press X to doubt. And I hope Knowles and Co. prove me wrong.
Our defense has sucked ass for three years. Obviously the first two were not with Knowles, but this year our D gave up a ton of big plays to even marginal competition, and got absolutely worked by the two high-talent teams we played.
I have high hopes for next year's defense, but we had plenty of talent on the field this year. I'm in "I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it" mode until they prove themselves on the field.
Front 7 should be great... it's the back 4 that will make or back the 2023 squad.
I suggest that last year was a year of adjustment for everyone on D. Year 2 should be better IMO. I trust Eliano, who helped make Gardner a first round pick, and Walton, who Jalen Ramsey called the best coach he ever had, to remake the secondary. They know who they have now and have skill to get the players where they need to be.
I honestly have a ton of questions about this D going into next season, and it starts at the top with Knowles, he has to have a better understanding of the game and his personnel on the field, I think sometimes he out thinks himself, there was no reason to be playing zero coverage with a safety on a WR in the semifinals, he has to get better at that, the d-line I don’t see anyone who can consistently get to the quarterback yeah JT had moments where he flashed but we need some consistency there of someone who you know on big passing downs will have pressure, I’m not 100 percent confident we have someone, Hall and Williams get a lot of publicity but there again they lack consistency, the LB’s will probably be the best position group on the defense but hopefully no one transfers cause we don’t know what we have behind the top 3, the defensive backfield is a complete mess, we have way to many guys who want to make business decisions and not make a tackle when it is needed, I would like to see 1 top flight CB from the portal brought in, we will have to see, I hope there is some strides made, for right now hopefully everyone in the secondary can stay healthy and have a complete off season to get reps and get better.
Our DLs/LBs were good in 2022 and could be even better in 2023. An elite front 6 can help overcome some of the deficiencies in the secondary, but there will be moments when the secondary has to hold its own and make a play. OSU's defense will go as far as our secondary takes us.
Here’s what I think is hard for me and other Buckeye fans. We aren’t expecting that every year we have Lattimore and Ward back there.
We expect (1) to have superior athletes than almost everyone we play (2) we expect a disciplined defense (know your job, do your job.
There is no reason in the world why Iowa or Northwestern or Cincinnati should have superior DB play year in and year out to OSU. They take two and three star guys and coach them up and coach while understanding their limitations. I’m still waiting to see us do that. Tressel’s teams did that consistently. Cooper’s teams did, too. Urban’s teams had some of the best corners to play here, but at times the lack of coaching and disciple burned us (2013 & 2018).
Outside of 2019… all of Day’s defensive team DBs have looked undisciplined and confused. Are we mid-identifying talent? It’s not like we are recruiting guys who are anything but high 4 star players at corner.
I don’t know what it takes to fix this, or if there is some weird correlation where having a fantastic offense somehow makes your defense inferior. It is, however, a real trend.
You win with people.
And so forth...
9 Units Strong!
It won’t be special if you can’t play better pass defense than this year’s team considering you’re playing 5 secondary guys - basically a nickle defense. I personally look at Knowles defense as a Big 12 defense with better talent…..
Need to get back to playing more 3 lb’s than 3 safeties.
Artthedart
This is an actual question not a snarky comment: name a big pass play that was given up this year that a 3rd lb’er would’ve helped with.
Knowles would bring in a 3rd LB when it was needed.
Playing 3 lbs allows your 2 safeties to play deep. We typically had McCalister man up on the slot and to help in run support we had Ransom cheating up because we only had 2 LB’s - just look at the 2 long runs Ttun had in the second half - watch them block/scheme the “2” lb’s right out of the play and the safety had to make the play because there is no lb on that side of the field. All ya really have to do is look at Iowa’s defense.....I would rather have us play Iowa’s defense with better recruited players then Duke/Oklahoma St.’s.....just sayin
Artthedart
No team in modern football plays with 3 LBs consistently, I really want some of you to watch games and actually formulate an educated opinion, do you know how many teams played 3 LBs atleast 50% of snaps in the NFL ? Zero , in a football game where teams are running 4 & 5 WR sets … why the hell would anyone with common sense stupidly put a 3rd LB in the game consistently? And FYI …. You can sit with two safeties in deep WITHOUT a 3rd LB …. OSU does it fairly often with Mccalister & Ransom sitting in the deep zones of the field
Watching several other teams really does help. Most would be surprised to find out the 3-4 Alabama runs is only that a small part of the game. Half the time it’s their version of a 4-2-5 and that’s just one case.
It's a personnel problem of not being that good. Styles is 6'4 220 and is as athletically gifted as anyone in college football. Carter is 6'1 200 plus. Both bigger faster and stronger than their predecessors. When you have Styles/Ransom/Carter as your starting safeties the scheme will most likely stand up better than with Hickman/Ransom/McCallister. Also I think we need to play a third CB on obvious passing downs. 4-2-5/3-3-5 works if the right players are there. You can't defend a spread offense with a base 4-3/3-4 look.
A little bit of objectivity can go a long way
Per Jim Knowles his defenses specialty is stopped spread RPO’s. Which makes sense because he came to fame bringing an elite defense to the spread wide open Big 12. Knowles’ system shouldn’t change.
3 LB's fixing our defense is ludicrous. Adding a 3rd corner or nickleback would be the correct answer. We needed more coverage. Safeties that's strong suit is speed and pass coverage and not playing in the box.
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
I think it definitely needs to be a mix so both CJ Hicks and Styles see the field often enough.
You're going to pull Eichenberg or Chambers, our two most experienced defensive players, off the field? Yeah i don't think so
Upon us all, a little rain must fall
I think there's a disconnect .I mentioned a mix of the 2 schemes so CJ could be the 3RD LB (who said pull Eich and Steele?) Styles would be in the 3 Safety look.
Hicks is competing with Simon for more snaps in the 3 lb’er looks. Yes they actually play 3 at times. He could see some more time in the chambers role as well. Styles will likely be in a similar situation at safety if not a full time starter with a spot opening up.
Eich and Steele stay on the field. But when a team is running 3,4, and 5 wr's. You can't have Latham Ransom and Tanner McAllister and Ronnie Hickman covering receivers that are known 4.3 - 4.4 guys. They can cover TE's and RB's and slower possession WR's. But you can't consistently put 2 big mismatches out there for teams to exploit. I mean hell man Xichigan ran a freshman TE out there and our guys were getting burnt. Josh Perry did a phenomenal job of breaking this down. Ransom was beat at the snap vs Georgia because he wasn't up at the line getting hands on the speedy WR. These strong safeties don't have the hip flexibility or speed to keep up with today's top notch athletes at wr. So either jam at the line or get 20 yards deep or get their ass on the bench and put a CB/NB who can run better. And notice these problems only appeared when the talent level could buy time for their QB. PSU, Maryland, Ttun, Georgia
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
IF the DB play remains poor we will just see the same song and dance next year
Successful people do what they have to, whether they feel like it or not
This the ebb and flow of buckeye football. Generational offense with a shit stain defense.
Meat grinder defense with gets shut out in a bowl game offense.
If....by some type of grace from god.....both sides of the ball are strong....the team will be decimated by injury or the best player on the team will go down.
These are the rules of Ohio State Football. Good/Bad offense or defense. Season ender for best player. Or as a cherry on top get super fucked by a terrible call in the most critical moment of the season.
I know there's a game Saturday, and my ass will be there.
I Believe In Ohio State.
No offense but when Knowles was hired last year, some poster said the 2022 defense was going to be special. A second similar post was made after Knowles said he wanted Day to tell the press that he wanted a TOP 5 defense. I just hope the defense is improved from last year. The defense currently is a long ways away from being special.
We were still a top 10 defense in "stop rate". Top-25 in points per game. And top 10 in other metrics that mattered like 3rd down %. We have 1 weakness. And if we can't fix it with Jimmy's and Joe's, it needs to be masked with X's and O's.
Bullets will be back to save the season, and Stroud's dignity.
We were not against anyone with a pulse who could throw the football....
the 4 best offensive teams we played scored 148pts - 37/gm.... you can get stats that are a little misleading when you play poor offenses like Iowa and Wisconsin etc. The year before (2021) the top 4 scored 153....
Artthedart
they can learn the system but you still need talent to carry it out and the Buckeyes have holes to fill on defense and some of the returnees needs to improve a lot.
I hope you are right, but they sure as heck didn't show up in the 2 biggest games of the year.
Pigskins & Porkrinds
I'll take K. Williams at strong safety, Ransom at free, and Carter as the nickel. Stokes should sub in first, then Styles.
People need to chill with 1st year expectations! Knowles improved Ohio State’s defense quite a bit in year one. The biggest change comes between years 1 and 2. Just look at what he did at Oklahoma State. His first year they were ranked in the 100’s in total defense. By his 4th year they were the number 1 defense in the country. Just look at the numbers below.
2020 - 402 yards 26 ppg
2021 - 367 yards 21 ppg
2022 - 304 yards 19 ppg
Knowles improved this defense. And I’d be will to bet that next year will be in the 280 yards and 15 ppg range. That would easily give Ohio State a top 5 defense. HUGE improvement from 83rd!
It would be interesting to compare the 2022 numbers of the "good" teams OSU played (UGA, UM, PSU) versus the Northwestern, Iowa's of the world.
Lawrence J.
Any defense at all would win you the CFP if you can get there.
I'm taking a wait and see attitude. The last three games, Knowles defensed was shredded and the last two with wide open receivers was devastating. This scheme or strategy has to be re-evaluated. It's not okay if you hold a team on some series, but then they score ridiculously easy TD's on others. I'm not saying Knowles is on the hot seat, yet, but fans will be a little more wary if these breakdowns continue.
When Al McGuire coached basketball at Marquette University back in the 1970's, he was asked about his philosophy on defensive stats. To paraphrase, he said that 'the only stats that really matter are those accumulated from your three best opponents' on the schedule. Otherwise, stats are misleading. .
As for giving up BIG plays, it's sickening to watch the Buckeyes throw away a 1/2 or full quarter of good work on one play. Those kinds of momentum-swinging plays almost always come back to haunt the team that gives them up, regardless of the sport.
Until the Buckeye defense can stand tall against the best teams on the schedule, the ranking of our Buckeye defense means nothing to me. I remain optimistic the Buckeye defense will be better next fall, but like most older fans will 'believe it when I see it.' Go Bucks!
Something else is meaningless; How well we do against our own , spread offense in spring and early fall scrimmages. There begins to grow a false evaluation of our DL against good, tough running teams because we see nothing like that from our own offense. However, that's not to say Knowles wasn't worried about that, hence committing too many DBS to stop SCUM's running game. SCUM's big running plays were a direct result...of losing the LOS inside and hampering our LBs at the point of attack. Fix that with good enough personnel...not schemes. Also that 4-2-5 became a 4-3-4 without adequately talented personnel for blanket coverage skills. DES and LBS are equipped with good personnel. All else needs to be upgraded to do those jobs. Where do those upgrades come from?? 10 fingers....13 holes in the damn dam.
Ill believe it when I see it
Talk is cheap, I hope this defense next year has a pulse and actually plays defense.
I'm not sure how "special" it will be, but the improvement of the defense from 2021's dumpster fire was very apparent, and I believe it will continue to improve in Knowles' second year (certainly still has a lot of room to do so). It was an entirely knew defensive staff with the exception of LJ.
Knowles has made some progress. I would rank the following seasons defenses as follows:
I'm hopeful 2023 puts us at least in the "good enough" category somewhere between the Bama 2020 defense and LSU's 2019 defense. If the secondary shows any improvement at all, it should get us there to Natty ready with the expected offense.
I think 2021's defense was way worse than 2020's. Would be shocked if the stats showed differently.
I don't know what the stats would show, but what I recall is the 2020 defense being terrible at defending the pass but decent against the run. The secondary looked all out of sorts. It seemed like a worse version of the 2022 defense in some ways.
The 2021 defense was pretty bad all the way around but REALLY struggled against the run, at least when facing respectable teams (Oregon, TTUN). Coombs was in way over his head and it really cost the team big time.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
Yep I'd agree with all of that
I think the shortened season skews the stats somewhat but 2020 was worse in both scoring D (26 points a game vs 23) and total D 407 yards a game vs. 367 in 2021.
https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div
Interesting. Think you’re right about the shortened season skewing the stats. It’s not just the losses to Oregon and TTUN and what not, but that 2021 defense just felt so much more demoralizing to watch every week than 2020’s (which was very shit in its own right).
The 2020 team also played against two playoff teams, including a great offense that Bama had, and played no out of conference games to pad those stats, and only 8 games total. Cannot look at the stats to compare 2020 to other years.
I agree with this. Every word. The big plays were immensely costly and overshadowed a lot of really good stuff, unfortunately. I get it- you can't make McCarthy and TTUN's WR's look like world-beaters or give Georgia 14+ easy points, but I'd take the 2022 defense over the 2020 or 2021 ANY DAY. If the front seven performs at a similar level and the secondary is consistently competent, the D at least shouldn't cost us any big games. And that's all the defense needs to do at this point.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
Unless Denzel Burke and Jordan Hancock can cover and tackle much better, I’d withhold optimism.
They wouldn't be the first corners to make a huge jump from year 2 to 3.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
They also wouldn’t be the first corners over the past several years to basically make no improvement at all.. just saying. That goes both ways.
Which corners in previous years are you talking about that were coached by Eliano and Walton?
Who's the last corner we developed into an all American and/or high draft pick?
Okudah is the most recent in 2020. Denzel Ward before him in 2018.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Yeah because OSU players never improve year over year. Ever.
Upon us all, a little rain must fall
They do sometimes. They don’t sometimes.
I like Knowles, if the offense would have done it’s part in the tun game defense wouldn’t have mattered, same for the playoff game. The Offense did well in the Georgia game, but it could have been better
They'll need to be special this year, because their schedule is tough
Bama gave up 52 to Tennessee. Elite O beats elite D now. We have the best O in the country, and Knowles will bring an elite D. Even still, we will give up 30+ in the Natty more likely than not. It's the nature of the game now.
"Our kind of families win a few more football games than others." Coach Hayes
Bama lost 2 games and didn't make the playoffs.
The best defensive team in the country just won back to back titles.
True, but Georgia also had enough offensive firepower to make it happen. They've had a great D for a long time, but the offense finally caught up.
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.”
-Jack Handey
If Jaw Jaw's offense wasn't very-good-nearly elite, we would have beaten them handily. It would have been the reverse of Clemson vs us in 2016.
We put up 41 on the best D in the country. That's my point. Our strength is on the correct side.of history.
"Our kind of families win a few more football games than others." Coach Hayes
I like a DL featuring more JT, more Sawyer, hopefully we see the emergence of guys like Jackson and Abor... That alone makes the defense very intriguing.
The Excellence of Execution, the Best there is, the Best there was, the Best there ever will be!
The thing with the defensive line that I think will be a big upgrade is getting/keeping Mitchell Melton healthy so that he can take that Jack role on and allow Sawyer to go back to being a hand in the dirt DE where he is better suited.
Hard to have much confidence heading into next year honestly...take it layer by layer
DL - JT had one great game and was otherwise solid, Hall started great then was a non-factor down the stretch, Tyliek has flashed but been mainly inconsistent and Sawyer has basically done nothing. DL has not been a game changing unit since Chase left.
LB - Best year for LBs since 2019, would love to see some Hicks action but no concerns here with Chambers/Eich coming back.
CB - Burke has been good and terrible at times, Hancock has done nothing but create rumors of being good and no one else has played a meaningful snap. Also, we still have no depth after four years of not having depth.
S - Unless Stokes is the guy we still have no deep coverage safety, Carter will hopefully be an athletic upgrade on McCallister. Styles has all the tools but have to remember he should only be a freshman, Ransom was great until the light was brightest...glad he is back bc that experience should help. Kourt is kinda like Hancock, all hype injured team but don't see him helping in coverage he is more of a box guy.
Scheme - Frankly a hard TBD. Knowles certainly needs to read the game better and adjust in-game based on what he is seeing. I mean blitzing McCarthy was insane when he couldn't throw from the pocket and they weren't running well against our base defense. Cover 1 up 14 with 8 mins left was borderline negligent
Hopeful that some guys take a leap and Knowles improves as well but I am expecting a lot of the same next year, so I think Day came to the correct conclusion heading into UGA game, gonna need to score at least mid 40s to win any big game.
Another issue is will Knowles & Co. play true Freshmen at CB if they'rethe best candidates. Simpson-Hunt and Matthews could very well prove to be the best of the bunch,but will they start or play meaningful snaps. As we all know,coaches can be stubborn. Burke played as a Frosh but that was not under Knowles.
Knowles kept rolling McAllister out onto the field week after week and he was at his very best an average player. We'll see.
Joe Swartz
Im old enough to remember Jyaire Brown starting a game and playing 197 snaps for the year. So no, I don’t think Knowles has an issue with starting/playing a true freshman if he’s better.
Ok? I hope, but if any indication was the last 3 games of the year + PSU... I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't understand why we would spend the money for a DC who's system takes 2-3 years to develop instead of hiring a DC like Michigan's who has instant results?
ttun’s changes on defense were just different coaches, not a schematic change. That probably helped. Every team has a goal of winning the NC. I’d say we came closer to accomplishing that than ttun did unless you think a loss to the underdog horned frogs was impressive.
Yeah, real impressed. We accomplished as much as those ass hats. If you think we are closer, they’re picked to win the Big 10 again
So you think OSU would have lost to TCU?
Nope, I think we would have beat them as bad as Georgia (but probably given up more points). But we'll never know.
Knowles will stay awhile, perhaps until retirement, and once his system is totally in place it has produced dominant results with inferior talent. In year one, imo, the defense was at least "good enough." They were in prime position to beat the CFB boogeyman, they just were not the team that came out on top . . . but they easily could have been. With almost all production returning, I am pretty optimistic about the future of the defense.
It's not that his system needs 2-3 years to develop. It appeared that way in his other stops because those other places didn't have the talent. Talent takes 2-3 years to get in the door and ready to play. We have talent here and we did see immediate results in year one. Regardless of how we played against top competition this defense was immensely better than 2021. The problem is the talent needs to continue to develop. Remember most of our defensive players were developed by Coombs staff so think of every player on the defense as a year or two younger. It's all about development. Next season will be much better.
Based on Knowles’ history the most logical conclusion is we will see a slight upgrade in the 2023 season and the defense will take huge strides in the 2024 season and beyond.
The future is bright!
Every team is different. It's not just about the coach. We could potentially lose a lot of pieces after next season. I'm expecting a slight fall back in 2024.
I fully expect the defense to play well against inferior teams. . But can they make stops and get off the field against Michigan? Can they do it in the biggest game? I have serious doubts. Harbaugh will scheme Day/Knowles up once again. Have them falling over their feet.
Unfortunately I agree, we gave up at least 3 touchdown to 7 teams. A small improvement from the year before.
I also have serious doubts but I don't think Harbaugh will out-scheme anyone. To be honest, I don't think he out-schemed TOSU the last 2 years. In 2021 it appeared to be a simple gameplan of running the ball down TOSU's throats- we could not win the line of scrimmage. This year we decided to shave off the top to stop the run. UM didn't play chess to have our defenders instantly lose the ability to tackle and be within the vicinity of a receiver. For some reason when I hear 'scheme' related to football I think of brilliance and or creativity to which I believe he (Harbaugh) didn't/doesn't possess. Maybe I'm being too petty
Einhorn is Brutus?
I really hope the Defense is special. And I really hope it's not ‘Special’
"You can never pay back, but you can always pay forward."
This is from Dan Hopes “5 Things to Know” article when Knowles was first hired.
It is important to keep this in mind when we discuss Knowles.
His defense didn’t get off to a good start @ Oklahoma State either, but they remained patient as should we. Even if Ohio State only has slight improvements in 2023.
I would think it would be better with experience. It was already better than it was before honestly. It was not perfect but it performed much better than I was hoping. They could have had one more stop against Georgia, but in losses it was easily a problem for both sides of the ball.
I thoroughly appreciate the realism here and agree. Another year of coaching and in the weight room can't hurt this defense. With pretty much the entire DL and LBs returning, this should also support our troublesome secondary. An additional year will only help Knowles settle in and progress... you'd think anyhow, haha... right?
Einhorn is Brutus?
I watched highlights from the 2016 Buckeyes defense - that secondary was insane. Hooker, Lattimore, Conley, young Denzel Ward... they put so much pressure on offenses. Hooker's highlight reel is unbelievable - I hope Stokes can turn into that type of playmaker at deep safety. I believe the CBs will be better this year, more hungry and anxious to improve. I think if we can see Sonny Styles develop and a defensive QB like Lathan Ransom, the story of the 2023 Buckeyes might be how a dominant, playmaking defense carried the team while a young QB developed into a Heisman finalist. That is my hope, which as a fan is all I should have going into every spring. Go Bucks!
Respectfully,
Larryp713
That was one of my favorite seasons to watch despite the dreadful offense and CFP game. That was the best secondary I've seen in my 20 years of watching the bucks. 4 first round picks who are all still balling in the NFL (besides Conley) is truly insane. The remaining defense was quite good too. I always love a team with great defense. As much as the we hate the Dawgs right now I can appreciate their game. Anyone can scheme and recruit track stars to play 7 on 7 ball, but it takes a true team approach to make a great defense. Obviously elite athletes go a long way but they still need to play as a unit. That's why the 2002, 2005, 2016 and 2019 OSU teams are my favorite. What's common? All had elite defenses.
I’m gonna wait and see like some others.
Im not going to get a “chubby” because we hold Y-Town, Rutgers and Indiana to single digits…judged on ND, PSU, Whiskey and tsun…then we can talk.
Those who stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon.